Second Meeting with Mr. Dwivedi

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Please come.] Kartikeya… He’s your son? No.

Mr. Dwivedi:
No, he’s my nephew.

Prabhupāda:
Nephew. Good boy.

Mr. Dwivedi:
And he’s his brother-in-law. I came with one request and also a suggestion, if that is appealable to Your Holiness. When I had been there in the night at home I has pondered a little, and I thought I am on very good terms with Mr. Jatti; easily approachable for me. Even in spite of the ministerial crisis on the 22nd, he met me. On the 2lst evening I went to Vṛndāvana. So I saw the, our Mr. President, Akṣaya[nanda] Mahārāja. He wanted me to stay. I said, “No, I am going away. I’m going with Mr. Jatti for tomorrow.” And I think if he is just a little free from government engagements, he would like to preside or inaugurate this function, and I would call it by the inauguration of the Krishna Consciousness Society branch in the state of Madhya Pradesh and at this place. And therefore, as soon as I’ll get permission from Your Holiness, I shall try to contact him tonight on telephone.

Prabhupāda:
It is… I think it is a good proposal. If President comes, it must be acceptable. A very good chance.

Mr. Dwivedi:
So if I have your permission, I’ll do this.

Prabhupāda:
Oh, yes. I… For mine, that… You told that “You gain your weight, increase your weight.” That induced me.

Mr. Dwivedi:
The very fact that Your Holiness will be going there, that has manifold increased our worth. We are not worried about weight.

Prabhupāda:
[laughs] Then accept. Then accept.

Mr. Dwivedi:
As the saying goes in Rāmāyaṇa, sevaka sadana svāmī āgamanu, maṅgala mūla amaṅgala harlun.

Prabhupāda:
And you are inviting Mr. Jatti. It is good opportunity. Let us…

Mr. Dwivedi:
Failing that… If, somehow or other, he’s not free… Because time so short, and if Jatti says yes, then I have to go to the Chief Minister, because on previous occasion he told him I wanted him on a particular function. He said, “You do this. Then get this straight. Otherwise as a President our bill becomes expensive, so the expenditure will go over the head of the state.” He showed me the way. So then immediately after, he said, “Yes.” Then I, right from Delhi itself, I gave a trunk-call to the Chief Minister, and I said, “Such and such is the position, Mr. Jatti is going, and I want to meet you personally in the matter, and I request you also that you should please participate.”

Prabhupāda:
Now the Chief Minister…

Mr. Dwivedi:
Is Mr. Sukla there. Because then they’ll have to make other arrangements.

Prabhupāda:
Sukla?

Mr. Dwivedi:
Yes. Śyāmacaraṇa Sukla.

Prabhupāda:
Oh. He was a Kanpur man?

Mr. Dwivedi:
Pardon?

Prabhupāda:
He’s a Kanpur man?

Mr. Dwivedi:
No. Originally they might be coming from Kanpur, but now from Raipur. He’s younger brother of this Vidya Charan, who was Broadcasting Minister. And in fact, even I’ll… If I get… One of our workers is already there. I got happily a letter yesterday. So the principal of the college is going to Bhopal, and if I can contact him somewhere if he is unavailable on telephone…

Prabhupāda:
Bhopal is the capital.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Bhopal is the capital.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
We had a big function in Bhopal, my party, for about ten days a few years ago.

Mr. Dwivedi:
And then I also desire, since Your Holiness is going, that press should be briefed right from Bombay. Why should I wait from Gwalior… Because I expect some people a few hundred miles off from Gwalior will also be turning up to meet Your Holiness. So if they know beforehand in papers from Bombay it will be better. Therefore I have requested my friend Mr. Goswami to give me two or three blocks. If it comes out that way, for our purposes also, he’ll need it, and here also I shall try to meet correspondent for one or two papers there, that they should ready to send their representatives over there, that way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Supposing that Mr. Jatti is not available, do you have some second choice?

Mr. Dwivedi:
Then my second choice will be on Mr. Nanda. Mr. Nanda also knows me.

Prabhupāda:
Nanda knows me very well. Nanda…

Mr. Dwivedi:
He also knows me, and he wanted to start a yogāśrama over there but for himself, and he had a mind.

Prabhupāda:
I don’t think… If Jatti does not come, then don’t attend from any other.

Mr. Dwivedi:
And Jatti will be the best, definitely.

Prabhupāda:
Yes.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Jatti will be the best.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Prabhupāda’s idea is that unless…

Mr. Dwivedi:
So Nanda I’ll drop. Only if Mr. Jatti comes, all right.

Prabhupāda:
That’s all, yes. Otherwise, let us hold…

Mr. Dwivedi:
And for your stay for the night I’m giving a call today to the Birla brothers at Gwalior, and if their guesthouse is free, then I will try to accommodate you there for the night. Of course, all this means little more spending of the petrol, but that is inevitable. We’ll have to spend it. There is no go…

Prabhupāda:
That doesn’t matter.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
No.

Mr. Dwivedi:
There is no go out of it.

Kartikeya:
[Transl. But it will be more comfortable.]

Mr. Dwivedi:
Because if we are going to Mr. Jatti, though there is plane service, but plane reaches only two days. Therefore I will not take up the plane. If he says yes, I’ll have to take a car, see him, come back, return in about twelve hours’ time—five hours to go to Delhi, five hours to come back, and another two hours just to meet him, straightaway only meeting him. Even if he says yes, then also, before I leave my place, I will once again confirm him on telephone that “I am stopping on such and such time, and you give me another two hours’ margin if something goes wrong with the car.”

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
How he will go there?

Mr. Dwivedi:
Pardon?

Prabhupāda:
Car.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Mr. Jatti will go to Gwalior by car?

Kartikeya:
No, they leave from…

Mr. Dwivedi:
Gwalior… Gwalior I may be going by train, but it is just possible that I am asking this young man, my cousin, if he kindly accompanies me, to share part of my work in order to get things done, if he can take his car. I don’t have a car. So I am requesting him. If he can spare about a week’s time, he’ll be a great help because…

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Yes, he will do the…

Mr. Dwivedi:
…the installation will of electricity…

Prabhupāda:
He’s young man. He can work.

Mr. Dwivedi:
If tomorrow I’m meeting… Mr. Mandalia is coming tomorrow, and if I can only meet him, then I’m asking him… I think he’ll give us a thousand meters of electric wire, another two-three hundred bulbs. So I’ll not have to spend anything. Only I have to take it and put things over there.

Prabhupāda:
Mandalia knows our movement.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Which Mandalia are you meeting?

Mr. Dwivedi:
D. P. Mandalia, I mean.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
D. P…

Mr. Dwivedi:
D. P. Mandalia.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
He’s our good member and everything.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Very good man.

Prabhupāda:
The son or the father?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
All three, the father and S.P., Shanti Prasad[?]… He’s our member also.

Mr. Dwivedi:
S.P. is father.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
D.P. is also our member and S.P., and Ashok, their grandson, is also a member. All three men are…

Mr. Dwivedi:
So I know D.P. more than S.P., though I know father and son both, and including their wives. They have been participating in our functions.

Prabhupāda:
No, they are very good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Very nice.

Prabhupāda:
Very nice.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Even here we had a dramatic performance in aid of Rural India in which one of the ministers, Mr. Yajni, provided, and Patil also was there, and Mr. D. P. Mondalia was one of the chief guests over there. And otherwise also, I get lot of help from D.P. So I expect him tomorrow, and if I meet him… Normally what happens is he sees me the next day of his coming. But I’ll try to press upon him, if I meet him tomorrow, then also most of my…

Prabhupāda:
[aside:] You want to talk?

Mr. Dwivedi:
…the difficulty will be solved.

Prabhupāda:
You want to talk with me?

Bhakti-cāru:
Yeah, I was wondering… [Transl. It is already boiled. What should I do with it?]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Just keep it for now.]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
So, as I told you yesterday, as far as you are able, you make arrangements.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Whatever else you cannot afford, that much we will pay. You don’t have to worry like that. You make a nice arrangement.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Don’t, you know…

Mr. Dwivedi:
No, I understand.

Prabhupāda:
And you, you get seat in Punjab Mail.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Yeah, tomorrow morning we’re going.

Prabhupāda:
Punjab Mail is best. Punjab Mail.

Indian man (1):
Most suitable train.

Prabhupāda:
Eh?

Mr. Dwivedi:
Most suitable train is Punjab Mail. You leave here about four o’clock, quarter past four, and you are at Gwalior round about two o’clock.

Prabhupāda:
That’s nice.

Indian man:
About quarter to two.

Kartikeya:
Less than twenty-four hours.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Less than twenty-four hours. Twenty-two hours.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Are there any other trains?

Mr. Dwivedi:
That… You have got the night train, leaving nine o’clock. That is taking you Gwalior at eleven o’clock in the night.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
No, no, no…

Mr. Dwivedi:
That is inconvenient.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Punjab must be the best.

Mr. Dwivedi:
This is only the best train. Punjab Mail is the best train.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
I already told someone to book everything. I’ve given them all information. Tomorrow morning I’m giving them the money for purchasing the tickets.

Kartikeya:
Mr. Jatti’s coming here in Bombay lst of May or 2nd of May to Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan.

Prabhupāda:
Who?

Kartikeya:
Danappa Jatti.

Mr. Dwivedi:
But I… I’ll have a…, try and call with him today, and I’ll ask him where he meets me. Of course, I would like to meet him.

Prabhupāda:
You can also inform him that we are going to organize the village organization according to Gandhi’s program.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Yes.

Prabhupāda:
That is our program.

Mr. Dwivedi:
He will help me.

Prabhupāda:
With spiritual idea.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Mr. Jatti, he will also help me with his suggestion.

Prabhupāda:
Gandhi’s program plus spiritual. Gandhi’s program…

Mr. Dwivedi:
Yes.

Prabhupāda:
…plus spiritual. Gandhi had no spiritual program; therefore it was a failure. But here that simple living plus spiritual program, that will affect.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Just to brief the press, I have written this…

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
I can go over that. That’s advertising. I can do this with him outside, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Mr. Dwivedi:
I have written this letter for you so that…

Prabhupāda:
You read it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
“To Shree Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami, Hare Krishna Land, Juhu. Dear friend, I am extremely grateful to His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda Guru Mahārāja for giving me his precious few minutes yesterday and your good self for arranging the interview. I request that His Divine Grace be graciously pleased to fix a date for His Divine Grace’s visit to Pohri to inaugurate International Krishna Society branch of Madhya Pradesh at Pohri and to revitalize and modernize the rural uplift activities of the Adarsh Seva Sangha. With profound regards, yours fraternally, H. S. Dwivedi.”

Prabhupāda:
So?

Mr. Dwivedi:
So if I get the letter from you… In fact, I drafted this letter for you also. You can make necessary changes in it, so if I get it, even a tentative date, that will be convenient for me. I’ll be able to approach the press people over here, and they will just spread out the news.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
“As per your request and as per interview you had with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda on 23/4/77, His Divine Grace with his entourage will…”

[break] …is a Thursday. Fifth: the program was to be from 5th to 8th, meant Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday. Now, whether these days will be easier for people to attend? Just like your idea is that some people from Gwalior will come and others. My feeling is that they’ll have an easier time to come on a Sunday or on a Saturday evening.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
But if we arrive on 7th, which is Sunday night, and the program begins on Monday night, then I think it will be all weekdays—Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday—which is…

Prabhupāda:
There is… In the village there is no such consideration.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
But his idea was also to invite some of the respectable gentlemen from the neighboring areas, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and they may…

Prabhupāda:
That is…

Mr. Dwivedi:
It could be… Then you… If the program should really start on Saturday, er, Sunday…

Kartikeya:
Thursday.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Sunday.

Kartikeya:
Saturday. Main on Sunday, but starting on Friday, Saturday.

Mr. Dwivedi:
No, you may reach there on Saturday, but program should start on Sunday. Seventh is Sunday.

Prabhupāda:
We are starting on Friday, hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
That’s… No, we were going to start on Wednesday and reach Thursday, and program was to start Friday. Friday evening, Saturday evening, Sunday evening, and Monday evening. Now he’s proposing, Mr. Dwivedi’s proposing, that we leave here Friday and arrive Saturday evening and that the program begins Sunday evening, Monday evening, Tuesday evening and Wednesday evening. Do you think the extra time is required?

Mr. Dwivedi:
Yes, time will be little… Even whatever little time that we… The time is already very short.

Prabhupāda:
No, I have no objection.

Mr. Dwivedi:
But nothing could be… We must have this, this little time.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
All right.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Because if Mr. Jatti comes, then even it will be difficult for the state government to manage so quickly.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
The next question is this: When will you know when Mr. Jatti will be coming?

Mr. Dwivedi:
Myself?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
When will you get it confirmed?

Mr. Dwivedi:
I think… Today, 29th… 24th, 25th, 26th, 27th… On 30th.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
So how can we book our tickets? Supposing Mr. Jatti says that “I’ll come on the 12th…” We don’t know. He’s the President of India. Supposing his calendar is only available that he can come by the 12th?

Prabhupāda:
No, you can conveniently book. We shall wait.

Kārttikeya:
No, you can specially book it. You say you are going for this purpose. You go to the Western…Central Railway Manager, General Manager and request that our program is there. You specially arrange.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
So my only point is, should we book any specific date until we confirm it from Mr…, hear it from Mr….?

Prabhupāda:
No, you… Suppose tentatively we accept that we shall start a program on Sunday. In that way you book. So if Jatti cannot come, then we shall wait. What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
To me it’s nothing, but they have to agree at the railway to change the booking.

Prabhupāda:
No, no. There is no need of changing booking. We go there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Oh, oh. We go, and we wait there.

Prabhupāda:
Hmm, hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Oh, that’s all right. I have no… I mean… My point is that the longer we have to book, the better. Not that we change ten days…

Prabhupāda:
No. Booking should be accepted any day is available.

Kartikeya:
We’ll wait there only.

Prabhupāda:
Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Yes, that’s the best.

Kartikeya:
So as the weather is good there, so one can stay there.

Mr. Dwivedi:
You reach there on the 6th. So that 7th morning will be… Sixth is Saturday. So Saturday you are at Gwalior, and then Sunday you’ll be there. Evening program will start.

Prabhupāda:
You book whichever date you get convenient. That’s all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Prabhupāda, may I ask you a question?

Prabhupāda:
Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
If you’re going to be traveling for a full day, Friday to Saturday…

Prabhupāda:
Friday-Saturday?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Yeah, you’re going to be traveling Friday afternoon and evening and Saturday during the day. Then you’re going to get into Gwalior. Probably we’ll arrive at the house by five or six at night, evening.

Kartikeya:
Three o’clock.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
No. The train arrives three. You won’t reach the house till 4:30 or five, by the time we get out of the train and get to the house. I’m trying to make this following point.

Prabhupāda:
No, no… From the station how far it is, the house?

Mr. Dwivedi:
My place for stay?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Yes.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Not more than two miles.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
The point I’m trying to make is simply this, that you’re going to be traveling for a full day. The next day, you’re going to be traveling for three hours. Whether you’re going to feel strong enough to do the program the same evening or whether we should arrive…? The program may begin Sunday night, but my point is that we should arrive and you should have enough time to rest before you start preaching that same night. ’Cause I think it’s going to be exhausting that you travel all day, then again you travel that morning, and then the same evening you have to give a program for two hours. That’s exhausting. Why not let us arrive one day earlier, but the program can begin Sunday, as Mr. Dwivedi’s suggesting? But let us arrive a day earlier, so you can you have a little rest there.

Prabhupāda:
So earlier means when?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
That we arrive… My proposal is that instead of arriving on 7th, we will arrive on 6th. Prabhupāda will arrive 6th.

Prabhupāda:
Then you’ll have to…

Mr. Dwivedi:
Sixth is what…?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Sixth is Friday. We will arrive 6th.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Sixth is Friday.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
But the program may be…

Prabhupāda:
Then you have to, we have to start on Thursday.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Yes.

Prabhupāda:
No, no, no.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
No good.

Prabhupāda:
No, no. Thursday I cannot.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Yeah, right.

Prabhupāda:
Thursday end is not good. Then you have to start on Wednesday.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Somehow you should not become exhausted. That’s not the purpose of going there, to become worn out. I mean, you know, we have to think practically about how you’re feeling also.

Prabhupāda:
No, if you start on Friday, we are reaching on Saturday.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Right.

Prabhupāda:
Then…

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Afternoon, Saturday afternoon.

Prabhupāda:
Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Saturday afternoon.

Prabhupāda:
Then we get rest the whole night.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Well, we get rest for, say, twelve hours’ rest. But then you have to travel again to go to Pohri district, which may be exhausting.

Kartikeya:
Seventy-five miles.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
I can’t say what… I mean, we don’t know. It’s a winding road. It may get you tired for traveling.

Prabhupāda:
Winding?

Mr. Dwivedi:
Not very winding. There are two roads. There are two roads. There is one road which is little winding. There is another road, but we have to travel eighteen miles more. Not winding, Agra-Bombay road. So there is a straight Agra-Bombay road also. But we have to take an extra eighteen miles more drive.

Kartikeya:
Eighty?

Mr. Dwivedi:
Eighteen. One-eight.

Prabhupāda:
So that is not…

Mr. Dwivedi:
So we can take either. And even this is not so very zig-zaggy and we are… No, not much. Not much.

Prabhupāda:
But anyway, we are going to hold session on Sunday.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Right.

Prabhupāda:
Then? What is the question?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Well, my point is that you’re going to have to travel Sunday morning to get there, and then hold a function Sunday evening, so whether that’s going to be tiring? That’s all I’m bringing out.

Prabhupāda:
The morning, how many hours?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Travel…

Mr. Dwivedi:
Three hours.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Three hours.

Prabhupāda:
And that’s all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
All right. I’ve seen it, that three hours’ traveling can be very tiring.

Prabhupāda:
What do you want to make?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
My proposal is that you should be able to rest before the program begins, sufficient rest.

Kartikeya:
You have to go on Wednesday then.

Prabhupāda:
Then you arrange for Wednesday.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Supposing, say, about what time in the morning we start? If we start about five o’clock, by about eight o’clock you’ll get Pohri. And Mahārāja will be having about ten hours’ rest.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Yeah, it sounds all right.

Mr. Dwivedi:
About ten hours’ rest.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
It sounds all right.

Mr. Dwivedi:
About ten hours’ rest.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
To you or me, at least.

Mr. Dwivedi:
And the function could be minimized according to our convenience. That also. Because it will go on for two, three days…

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
All right, so let’s keep it at that. I mean, I’m not trying to go against everybody. I’m only trying to think for your well-being.

Kārtikeya:
No, just keep it one day better go earlier. Better go one day earlier.

Prabhupāda:
No, no, my attendance there… Actually, kīrtana and other things will be done by you.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Yeah.

Prabhupāda:
So I’ll sit down. That is all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Okay.

Prabhupāda:
So the most important thing is, if the President is coming, it will be very good starting.

Mr. Dwivedi:
I can say I’m not conversant with your physical condition. That’s my misfortune. Personally, though, I am very young before you, though I am running sixty-eight. I don’t find any difficulty. I go anyway, standing, sitting, and I…

Prabhupāda:
No, you are quite healthy.

Mr. Dwivedi:
I’m quite healthy, by God’s grace. Quite healthy by God’s grace. And I enjoy better sleep in the train than at home. I’ll sleep in the train at will. And usually I make good the deficiency of my sleep in the train.

Prabhupāda:
No, sleeping in the train, there is no difficulty.

Kartikeya:
No, some people do not get. Because of the movement, some people don’t get sleep sometimes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
You’ve slept pretty well whenever we take train.

Kartikeya:
[aside:] Does he like air-conditioned coach?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
[aside:] No, he likes the open. He likes open air.

Prabhupāda:
So do that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Okay.

Prabhupāda:
And if I actually feel little healthy, I shall stay there for some time to improve my health.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Climate is healthy. That’s one thing I could say, Your Holiness.

Prabhupāda:
That is healthy.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Climate is healthy. Water is healthy.

Prabhupāda:
Then let us go there.

Kartikeya:
What is the height of the place, from the sea level?

Mr. Dwivedi:
Sea level, we are 1700 feet.

Prabhupāda:
That’s all…

Mr. Dwivedi:
And then all round about is forest.

Kartikeya:
Forest is there.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Oh, yes.

Kartikeya:
That’s good thing.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Hardly we can’t walk even for, say, half a mile, then forest comes up.

Kartikeya:
That is very good thing, not only the height.

Prabhupāda:
Forest breeze is very healthy. So let us arrange.

Mr. Dwivedi:
This is literally correct. If from the boundary of our school I take a sling and throw a stone, it will go to the forest next side.

Prabhupāda:
So make arrangement.

Mr. Dwivedi:
And very near about there are beautiful places. Mahārāja will be able to enjoy them only from below, but we have a Kedāreśvara, a beautiful cave temple.

Prabhupāda:
Oh.

Mr. Dwivedi:
And round about the whole year from the mountain water flows back, water drizzles over a banyan tree and then inside into the mountain…

Prabhupāda:
There is waterfall?

Mr. Dwivedi:
Waterfall. The waterfall is different. This water drizzles from the mountain. Waterfall is five miles away, so I do not count it. They say 150 feet or so, waterfall. But this is…

Prabhupāda:
How far it is, waterfall?

Mr. Dwivedi:
Waterfall is about four or five miles away from our place.

Prabhupāda:
Oh, that’s nothing.

Mr. Dwivedi:
But this is…

Prabhupāda:
Very good atmosphere.

Mr. Dwivedi:
This is just a mile or even less than a mile from our colony itself. River there… First of all there is river. Your Holiness may not be… Your Holiness will be able to see it from the riverside. But other people, my friend Gosvāmī, will be able to go up over the mountain. It’s not a very…

Prabhupāda:
And river, river, how far it is, river?

Mr. Dwivedi:
Pardon? River, there are two rivers. One river which is a small canal, but it flows throughout the year, where we have a scheme for starting dairy. So that is actually shaving our school boundary. Then there is another river, where I am talking of the Kedāreśvara temple. This is about a mile or about three-fourth of a mile…

Prabhupāda:
Good river.

Mr. Dwivedi:
…distant from our colony. And a fairly big…, small…

Prabhupāda:
Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, or somebody, some authority says, that “In a place whether, where there is no friend, no temple and no river, don’t go there.”

Mr. Dwivedi:
Ah, yes, yes, Mahārāja. That is in Śukra-nīti. That is in Śukra-nīti. [Transl. tāhāṅ nā vasiye rāta, yāhāṅ nadī nā ho vaidya nā ho, aur, nadī, vaidya aur apne rājya nā ho.* Don’t spend a night in a place where there is no river, no physician, and not your kingdom.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Not physician.] “Nadī or river, friend and temple.”

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. Yes. The temple is very good there. The present temple which is there now] …that is also shaving our colony, beautiful temple inside the waters.

Prabhupāda:
Our Indian touring means…

Kartikeya:
River and temple.

Prabhupāda:
River and temple. That’s all. All our holy places are on the bank of the Ganges, Yamunā, temple.

Kartikeya:
Except Bombay. Bombay has no river.

Prabhupāda:
Bombay is big river, this… [laughter]

Mr. Dwivedi:
Has got father of rivers.

Prabhupāda:
And the temple is there, Mumbā devī.

Kartikeya:
Father of river is Himalaya.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Give any name you like. As friend you might call.

Kartikeya:
Father it is not, sāgara.

Mr. Dwivedi:
So there is this Kedāreśvara Kiṅkar temple. So many sādhus come there just for taking various kinds of herbs and medicines and they go away. They stay for the night. Ten, fifteen days’ halt they make. And there is this beautiful cave-cut temple where throughout the year there is the śiva-liṅga, and on it throughout the year water flows.

Prabhupāda:
Oh.

Mr. Dwivedi:
And inside the temple itself there is little pond, so deep, and we may take any quantity out of it. The water is only that much quantity is always there.

Prabhupāda:
Good place.

Mr. Dwivedi:
So this is a mile’s, hardly, less than a mile’s distance from our colony. And the river it is perennial river. We have to just cross it, and it gives good passage, particularly during this season. All seasons practically we go and go over the mountain and the temple. Then, on the roadside itself near our colony, there is a water temple. We call it Jalmandir. That is also a beautiful temple. It’s like the Amritsar type. And one story of that temple is always in the water. Even in the summer, when Your Holiness will go there, Your Holiness will find. And that is Kṛṣṇa’s temple.

Prabhupāda:
Oh.

Mr. Dwivedi:
And some of the photographs which were shown to me yesterday, I find the ditto in that temple, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa’s temple.

Prabhupāda:
Good place.

Mr. Dwivedi:
This is the… I think I got a view of that temple.

Prabhupāda:
Good inducement. So Kartikeya, you are coming?

Kartikeya:
If you’re not going to Kashmir, I’ll come with you.

Prabhupāda:
Eh?

Kartikeya:
If you are not going to Kashmir for the month of May…

Prabhupāda:
No, no.

Kartikeya:
…then I will come.

Mr. Dwivedi:
This is the view of that temple, Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda:
Oh.

Mr. Dwivedi:
This Jalmandir. This is the river temple.

Prabhupāda:
Very good temple. Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa?

Mr. Dwivedi:
Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa temple. This is near our colony.

Kartikeya:
He has got a booklet on Pohri. [Transl. And our travel guide. It’s in Hindi, sorry. Is it written in Hindi?]

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. Pardon? Yes. It is written in Hindi.]

Kartikeya:
So there is the water all around.

Mr. Dwivedi:
All around.

Kartikeya:
[Transl. Amritsar type. Always water.]

Mr. Dwivedi:
And one story is always in the water itself. That is not shown in Amritsar all around. But here one story is throughout in the water.

Kartikeya:
Is it an old temple or a new temple?

Mr. Dwivedi:
Old temple.

Kartikeya:
Place is old, but the temple is new.

Mr. Dwivedi:
No, not new. Temple is also about two hundred years old. By the way it has a beautiful story behind it. This was the sub-division, this Pohri. So the cashier, he spent the whole treasury in building up this temple. And when the news went to the sub-divisional officer, then this priest, they did not meet so frequently as they started meeting now in our life. Every six months they try to come over there. So he took a diamond, and the cashier, then he died. The sub-divisional officer was very sorry. He gave…, he granted a tax free land for that family and the temple, about six thousand rupees every…, a yearly tax exemption for this much amount, some land and tax exemption and all that. So this is a public temple that way.

Prabhupāda:
There is another story like that, Rāma Mandir. In South India. What is that state?

Mr. Dwivedi:
And at Gwalior also we have got a beautiful temple of Lord Kṛṣṇa. We call it Sanātana Dharma Mandir.

Prabhupāda:
So we shall see that temple.

Mr. Dwivedi:
But that is with the only Kṛṣṇa with cakra-sudarśana in His hands.

Prabhupāda:
Vāsudeva Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Yes, Vāsudeva.

Prabhupāda:
That Rāma Mandir, there is story that the treasurer, he spent money. [laughs]

Kartikeya:
Spent money.

Prabhupāda:
Yes. And the nawab was informed that “He is spending money from your treasury.” Then he: “How is that, you are spending without permission?” So he did not reply. “Yes, I have done.” “Then you pay.” So he was arrested, that “You have misspent, misappropriated this money.” Then at night two young men, that “You take the money from us and release him.” So he said, “If I get money, I will release them.” So when he woke up from dream, he saw the money and took up. But the boys were not there. Then he understood that he’s a Rāma-bhakta, Rāma-Lakṣmaṇa. So he immediately called him that “You are released, and you also take this money, and do your service to Rāmacandra, as you like.” Ahmednagara. Ahmednagara.

Kartikeya:
Ahmednagara?

Prabhupāda:
Formerly India was very advanced in devotion.

Mr. Dwivedi:
And just near there is moving door, shutting door. It has got nine pillars. If you just push one pillar, the entire structure shifts. And the pity is the archaeological department of government of India has taken no care about it. We had some good statue of Buddha and Mahāvīra and… Two, three were stolen away. We collected at our own institution. Then ultimately I wrote to government. I said, “Already some statue have been stolen away. You kindly left it wherever you like. We can’t protect them from thieves.” Just three months back. Then they took away another three statue—one of Viṣṇu, and I think one of Buddha, another of Mahāvīra.

Prabhupāda:
Stone?

Mr. Dwivedi:
One big, one were stolen. Three… I asked government. I asked them three times. Government has not yet taken them away from there. Otherwise we had collected it at our own headquarters and institution.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Deity of Kṛṣṇa?

Mr. Dwivedi:
Pardon?

Prabhupāda:
No, Buddha.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Buddha. And Viṣṇu.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Viṣṇu?

Mr. Dwivedi:
You’ll find in India, most of the statues, ancient ones, are of Viṣṇu because, perhaps, Viṣṇu is a more ancient Vedic God than Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda:
Kṛṣṇa is the origin…

Mr. Dwivedi:
I do not know much about it, but that’s what I think. And therefore you find more statues of Viṣṇu than Kṛṣṇa. But nobody might be stealing statues of Kṛṣṇa, and He might be still there with His cakra-sudarśana.

Prabhupāda:
Tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padam. Ṛg Veda. Viṣṇu… Oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ. Viṣṇu is the Vedic Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Round about Gwalior, there is a good sage, almost, Mahārāja, of your age. And he’s a tāntrika-śāstrī at Datiya. He’s the founder of Pitambar Pith. Running a Sanskrit school, but otherwise practicing…

Prabhupāda:
Datiya is near Gwalior?

Mr. Dwivedi:
Not near; forty miles away from Gwalior.

Prabhupāda:
One lady lives in Vṛndāvana…

Mr. Dwivedi:
He has written books also on tantra-śāstra. And I understand most of these ministers, they were going to seek his blessings. I did not know to whom he gave his blessings, but what I know is that most of these people were going to him. I only… One day I asked him. He’s very kind towards me, so I go to him and I dine with him. So I told him one day, I said, “Mahārāja, you speak to Mafatlal people to give some money to our institution.” He said, “Mr. Dwivedi, I do not ask any friends or anybody to do anything for me or to anybody.” So then I said, “Mahārāja, then I put one question to you if you permit me.” He said, “All right, I permit you.” So “Somewhere, Vivekananda has said that ‘Service of God… Service of humanity is service of God.’ Do you think it is correct or it is incorrect?” He said, “This is correct.” Then I said, “We are running educational institutions. Whatever good or bad, leave that aside. But I think in our own little small way we are rendering little service to humanity. And…”

Prabhupāda:
But I may interfere. The… In the Bhagavad-gītā is there such statement that “Service to humanity is service to God”? Is there any statement?

Mr. Dwivedi:
Daridrāṇāṁ bhara kaunteya… [?] I think there is somewhere…

Prabhupāda:
There is no.

Mr. Dwivedi:
But this particular I remember, daridrāṇāṁ bhara kaunteya…

Prabhupāda:
This is… This is wrong theory. Don’t maintain this. This is a very wrong theory. Just like “Service to the leaves is service to the root.” Is it not wrong? What do you think? A tree, so where the service should be given—to the root or to the leaf?

Mr. Dwivedi:
The root.

Prabhupāda:
Then why do you say like that? And Kṛṣṇa says openly, mam ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. He doesn’t even recommend to worship demigods. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajanty anya-devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20]. So these are imagination, concoction. They are not authorized. Vivekananda advocated daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā hundred years ago. So India is full of daridras. What Mafatlal can do? What Vivekananda can do? This is all simply concoction. You cannot do anything.

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā
kartāham iti manyate
[Bg. 3.27]

The nature’s law will go on. You cannot make a poor man a rich man, unhappy man a happy man. That is not possible. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo ’sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu [Bg. 13.22]. Can you make a hog eat halavā instead of stool? Can you make? By nature’s way it is going on. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. These are foolish person who concoct ideas. It is not possible. If you can do anything to the human society, induce him to become a Kṛṣṇa devotee.

ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ
mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati
[Bg. 18.68]

na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣukaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ
[Bg. 18.69]

Kṛṣṇa says. So Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam… [Bg. 18.66]. Teach people that “You take it.” That is real benefit. Otherwise you cannot do anything. What you can do?

Indian man:
The persons are the root.

Prabhupāda:
Yes! Root should be given water.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
He says, “Persons are the root.”

Kartikeya:
Person is the root.

Prabhupāda:
Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
He says, “Persons are the root.”

Prabhupāda:
No, Kṛṣṇa is the root.

Kartikeya:
Kṛṣṇa is the root.

Prabhupāda:
Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB. 1.1.1]. This is the Vedānta. Aham ādir hi devānām [Bg. 10.2], Kṛṣṇa says. So devānām, Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. He is the origin of Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. The root is Kṛṣṇa. Kāraṇam… Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ
anādir ādir govindaḥ
sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam
[Bs. 5.1]

Root is Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man:
The origin.

Prabhupāda:
Origin, yes. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mat… [Bg. 10.8]. That is the difficulty. You do not read Bhagavad-gītā. You quote Vivekananda; you quote another, another. But Kṛṣṇa is God. That is the cause of misfortune of India. You don’t accept Kṛṣṇa as the authority. Everyone accepts, all the great sages formerly—Asita, Devala, Vyāsa. Svayaṁ caiva bravīṣi me. [Bg. 10.13] And at the present era, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Caitanya—all accept, *kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān [SB. 1.3.28]. You don’t follow the ācāryas, the authorities, Kṛṣṇa. You bring something else.

Kartikeya:
Concoction.

Prabhupāda:
That is the misfortune. They have left the authority, real authority. They have accepted some foolish man as authority. And that is the misfortune. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, the supreme authority. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. Why don’t you take this? Distortion of our śāstra, distortion of authority, and bringing something foolish, and you are following. Not… You cannot follow. That is not possible. It is not possible. But you are making some authorities. You’re trying to follow. Even if you follow… That, the same example, just like Vivekananda was advocating daridra-nārāyaṇa. First of all this is a concocted word. How Nārāyaṇa can be daridra? People have accepted. Nārāyaṇa is daridra?

Mr. Dwivedi:
No.

Prabhupāda:
Then how he manufactured this nonsense word? It is insulting. If I say, “Foolish Jatti, President. Rascal,” so is it not insult? Similarly, if you say daridra-nārāyaṇa, it is insult to Nārāyaṇa. But people are accepting daridra-nārāyaṇa. Just see how they are misled.

Indian man:
They have not even proper knowledge, sir.

Prabhupāda:
Eh?

Indian man:
They have not even proper knowledge.

Prabhupāda:
No knowledge. All rascals.

Kartikeya:
Not even proper. No knowledge.

Prabhupāda:
That is the difficulty. Rascals have become leaders.

Kartikeya:
And we follow them.

Indian man:
And we have to, actually. It is…

Kartikeya:
Not we have to. Here is a leader. Why don’t you follow him?

Mr. Dwivedi:
But when we get the opportunity then we can do so.

Kartikeya:
No, opportunity is given.

Indian man:
Yes.

Kartikeya:
He has been doing it for so long.

Indian man:
Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda:
That is the misfortune of human society. The other thing…

Mr. Dwivedi:
This also happens by good luck. As Rāmāyaṇa says, vinā hari-kṛpā na mile sat-saṅga. [Transl. That is possible only by the Lord’s mercy, otherwise not.]

Kartikeya:
No, that’s not… You should not worry about a poor people then. You should worry about Kṛṣṇa only. You should serve Him. You should become His devotee.

Prabhupāda:
There are… Poor people, so far concerned, that… Are we not taking care of the poor people? That is automatically taken. Who is poor? A man who is poor in knowledge, he is poor.

Mr. Dwivedi:
That is correct. Yes.

Prabhupāda:
Otherwise nobody’s poor.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Americans are very rich from…

Prabhupāda:
Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
…material point of view.

Prabhupāda:
Poor means poor in knowledge. Otherwise even a small ants, it is not poor. It is eating. You are not giving food. In this room you’ll find some hole. Hundreds and thousands of ants will come out. Are you giving him food? And you go to the jungle: thousands of elephants are there. Are you giving them food? Why you are concerned about the poor? Who is poor? Poor means who has no knowledge. He is rascal. He is poor. Poor means poor in knowledge. Otherwise nobody is poor. Everyone is getting his food according to his karma. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur deha upapattaye [SB. 3.31.1].

These are wrong theories. Wrong means because they are rascals, they are putting something rascal, idea. Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam, avyayam. [Bg. 7.25] Nityo nityānāṁ ceta… This is Vedic version. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān [Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13]. [Transl. These are the conclusions, but they have rejected it. And they have accepted someone who speaks nonsense as authority.]

We want to stop all this nonsense. That is our mission. Our Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s mission is that “You become guru,” as I was telling, “and teach, deliver persons where you are.” If you say, “How can I become guru?” there is no difficulty. Simply repeat the words of Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa. That’s all. You become guru. So our mission is to create real guru, not these jugglers. And real guru is he who speaks on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. And that is guru. It is very simple. Do you accept or not? Boliye. [answer?]

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. After hearing all this, what is left to be spoken? I have understood.] [laughter]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. He has ruined everything.] …manufacturing word, nārāyaṇa daridra. Lakṣmī-pati is daridra or the husband of Laksmi is poor? [Transl. What a big ass! And people are accepting! Vivekānanada said! What Vivekānanada said, you don’t check? You just accept? When you go to the market you check a thing thoroughly before you buy it, but here you have accepted him as a guru, authority without checking? This is India’s misfortune. Guru’s definition is given in Bhagavad-gītā. Nobody reads only, but claim they read Bhagavad-gītā. Everyone says like that. Gandhiji says like that, this fellow says like that. They didn’t read anything. They don’t understand even a single line.]

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. We feel like as if you place a Bhagavad-gītā on the back of a bull, simply a burden.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. That is not good. Guru… tad viddhi pranipatena… This is the statement of Bhagavad-gītā.]

tad viddhi praṇipātena
paripraśnena sevayā
upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ
jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ
[Bg. 4.34]

[Transl. You should approach such a guru who is jñānī or knowledgeable and who has seen the truth. Not to an upstart guru. They are not guru. They are cheaters. You go to that person, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā. You approach that person who is fully knowledgeable and who has seen the truth. One who has seen the truth, he is a guru. These things have been lost. Now we want…]
We want to re-establish this. This is our mission. Everything is there. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upade [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. “You simply make your life successful by understanding Bhagavad-gītā and preach this. You become guru.” So where is the difficulty? Why don’t you do that? [Transl. Answer? Why don’t you follow that? Now you see, you have established this seva sangha, but] you quoted from Vivekananda, not from the Bhagavad-gītā.

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. That I have done out of my own will. But on the top of our report it says:]

yat karoṣi yad aśnāsi
yaj juhoṣi dadāsi yat
yat tapasyasi kaunteya
tat kuruṣva mad-arpaṇam
[Bg. 9.27]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Then you start from there.] Take… Take Bhagavad-gītā as the authority. Everything will be all right. [Transl. This is the subject matter of our preaching.]

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. The very first day I was made to take an oath by the] founder. The first day I couldn’t understand it then… [Transl. “In every step of your life, keep undivided faith on Īśvara.”]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. He doesn’t know who is Īśvara.]

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. Śrī gaṇeśāya namaḥ.] He doesn’t say. [Transl. r-a-t=rat or c-a-t=cat and all that.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Most of them create Īśvara! That is the difficulty. They create Īśvara! Just like Vivekānanda, Rāmakṛṣṇa says “Īśvara is great.” That Gadādhara Chatterjee, [Rāmakṛṣṇa’s former name.] he became Īśvara! Vivekānanda said it. This is going on. Is Īśvara like that? If we project someone as Īśvara, does it mean he becomes Īśvara? Like that everyone is Īśvara. What is the meaning of Īśvara? Tell me?]

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. Paramātma or the Supersoul.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. You added parama. I am asking what is the meaning of Īśvara?]

Kartikeya:
Supreme controller.

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. The meaning of the word “Īśvara” is controller or He whose command is obeyed. Everyone’s order is obeyed. My order is obeyed, your order is obeyed, everyone has their own area of authority. In your house you order your son, your servant, so in that sense everyone is Īśvara. But Īśvara parama, that is wanted. Above Whom there is no superior authority to command. He is the real Īśvara. He is described in the sāśtra, Īśvaraḥ paramah kṛṣṇaḥ. Everyone is Īśvara. Everyone, in their respective areas, jurisdiction, everyone is Īśvara. But that Īśvara is not real. The real Īśvara is He Whom nobody can command. Just like I order my disciples, but above me there is my guru. Above him is his guru, then his guru, then his guru, it will go on. But there is no guru above Kṛṣṇa.]

Kārtikeya:
He is Jagad-guru.

Prabhupāda:
Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1], anādir ādir… Anādi.

[Transl. He has no origin. These are the conclusions. He is the origin of all. He has no origin. He is Īśvara. The actual Īśvara. You have got so profound knowledge.] You have got so exalted knowledge in India. You have kept it packed. And you are going to beg from others? Take this knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā and assimilate it, make your life successful, and distribute it throughout the whole world. That I want. [Transl. This knowledge is found nowhere in the world.] Knowledge, real knowledge, is in India. [Transl. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu…] Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said,

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra
janma sārthaka kari’ kara para-upakāra
[Cc Ādi 9.41]

Indians, they are fortunate. They have got their birth in Bhārata-varṣa. The knowledge is here. So assimilate this knowledge. Make your life successful and distribute it to persons outside India. That is paropakāra. That is real paropakāra. That is real sevā. But sevā, no; it is dayā. The sevā cannot be used. Sevā means offered to the superior. And to the inferior, if you want to do something, that is dayā. There are words. Sevā is only capable to accept, Kṛṣṇa. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ [Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234]

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. Sevā* is applicable to the Supreme Lord only.]

Prabhupāda:
Yes. Sevā, Bhagavān accept, can accept.

ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa āra saba bhṛtya
yāre yaiche nācāya se taiche kare nṛtya
[Cc Ādi 5.142]

So master can accept sevā. So whenever there is devotional service, it is called bhagavata-sevā. And jīve dayā or showing compassion to the living entities. [Transl. The foolish living entities are under the illusion of their own ideas. So display compassion to them by enlightening them that “Look sir, this is the reality.” That is dayā or compassion. If anyone has got something…] If you have got something, then you can be merciful to others. If you have no knowledge, what you can do? The basic principle is with us. It is in India, Bhārata-varṣa, exalted knowledge, and if it is presented properly, people will accept. They are accepting now, one man’s effort. If many men are prepared to do this service, the whole world will be followers of *Bhagavad-gītā. [Transl. Why worry about Pakistan? The whole country will become Hindustan. But…]

[break] …come to give here India’s knowledge. In big meeting I told him that “I have not come here to beg. I have come here to give.” Everyone goes from… Even the Prime Minister goes—beg. All beggars. And it is known as “beggars’ nation.” But you can be the, I mean, giver nation. You have got so much potency. But we are not training people in that way. They are learning dog dancing. That’s all. If we simply understand this one word, beginning of the Bhagavad-gītā… There are so many students of Bhagavad-gītā, but nobody understands Bhagavad-gītā. The beginning is,

dehino ’smin yathā dehe
kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
tathā dehāntara-prāptir
dhīras tatra na muhyati
[Bg. 2.13]

Is not there in the beginning?

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. Yes, in the second chapter.]

Prabhupāda:
So if there is dehāntara-prāpti, then where is your so-called nationalism, socialism? They do not understand. Suppose if you are Indian today, and dehāntara-prāpti, you become something else. Then where is your nationalism? Boliye. For twenty years or, say, fifty years nationalism… When you become young man, thirty-forty years, then you begin. Suppose you live for hundred years. So fifty years’ nationalism. Then, if by chance you become a dog? [Transl. Answer me?]

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. Then nothing remains. Even] Vasudhaiva-kuṭumbakam [Transl. or the whole world is Vāsudeva’s family, no longer exists. People are born, and that is it.]

Prabhupāda:
Vasudhaiva-kuṭumbakam, all right, because Kṛṣṇa says,

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya
sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ
tāsāṁ mahad-yonir brahma
ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā
[Bg. 14.4]

If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then kuṭumbakam. If you don’t understand your father, where is kuṭumbaka? [Transl. Kṛṣṇa, you have dismissed the father. And you are talking about relative? What a] foolish idea. You do not recognize the father, and crying for brother. If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then vasudhaiva-kuṭumbakam. If you do not understand, it is foolishness. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54].

If you can understand your position as part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, Paraṁ Brahma… Kṛṣṇa… Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. Everything in the Bhagavad-gītā… If you understand that “I am part and parcel of Paraṁ Brahma. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. I am also Brahman,” that is brahma-bhūta [SB. 4.30.20]. Prasannātmā na śocati…, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. [Bg. 18.54] Then you can claim this vāsudeva… If you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, it is all nonsense, simply slogan. Where is kuṭumbaka? Then where is nationalism? I have gone to preach in the foreign countries—really on kuṭumbakam, not that “I am Indian. He is American. He is Englishman.” Then there is no question of kuṭumbakam. And people are fighting on this plane. This vasudhaiva-kuṭumbakam… Then why you asked the Englishmen to go away, quit India? What do you say?

Mr. Dwivedi:
Narrow nationalism.

Prabhupāda:
Eh?

Mr. Dwivedi:
Narrow nationalism.

Prabhupāda:
If you… If you think kuṭumbakam… Suppose some kuṭumba has come to your house. You ask him, “Go out”? This is our system. Gṛhe śatrum api prāptam. This is Indian culture. When you receive somebody at your home, even if he’s your enemy—gṛhe śatrum api prāptam—you should treat with him in such a way that he’ll forget that he’s your enemy. Viśvastam akutobhayam. That was India’s culture. Bhīma went to Jarāsandha to fight. Whole day it was fight. It was kṣatriya’s fight. Unless one is dead, the fight will continue. So Bhīma and Jarāsandha were equally powerful, so no decision. But still, he was guest at Jarāsandha’s house. At night they were eating together, talking together. This is India’s culture. They forgot. Arjuna went to see in the battlefield to Duryodhana. And Duryodhana immediately said, “Come here, my brother. You have come. What do you want? How can I help you? You want your kingdom without fight? I can give you.” He said, “No, no, that is not my business.” This is kṣatriya. He… He thought that “He has come to beg.” “No, no, that already… That we shall decide in the battlefield.” This is kṣatriya. But when he’s at my place, I offer, “All right, if you want without fight, you can take.” This is… Just see! This is India’s culture. [Transl. This is Mahābhārata.] “History of Greater India.” [Transl. And your Gandhiji says, “These are nothing, all fiction.”]

Mr. Dwivedi:
Gandhi says that the Mahābhārata is within.

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Just see!]

Mr. Dwivedi:
“The Rāmāyaṇa is within.” That’s what he says.

Prabhupāda:
And therefore… Therefore…

Mr. Dwivedi:
He said, “Rāvaṇa was nobody except your own senses.”

Prabhupāda:
…Kṛṣṇa… Kṛṣṇa gave him within—bullet. Yes. “Your nonviolence is within. You take it within. Take this bullet.” Such wrong theory. “You want to establish nonviolence, and the violence is within. Take it.” So don’t theorize. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti [Bg. 16.23]. This is Gītā’s word. If you do not follow the śāstra—you manufacture ideas—you’ll never get success, na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti na sukham, no happiness, and what to speak of parāṁ gatim? [Transl. You will have to give up all these ideas.] Tasmāt śāstra-vidhānoktaṁ kāryākārya…

What is that verse? We have got guidance, śāstra, and Kṛṣṇa is speaking. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is very easy. But we have given up all these things. [Transl. And became an upstart guru. An upstart guru.] So you have to give up this. Otherwise there is no hope.

[break] And to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, it is not at all difficult. Very simple thing. Otherwise how they have become? Ten years before, they did not know who is Kṛṣṇa. So how they have become Kṛṣṇa conscious? And our position is that even a person like Gandhi, he could not become Kṛṣṇa conscious in hundred years. Because the wrong way. And they have become within ten years fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. Now ask him that “Go back to your Christian.” Will they go? They have been kidnapped. They have been forced. In so many ways they have been harassed. No. In America it was going on. Their fathers… From parents’ side they have been kidnapped, detoured by force that “You eat it, the māṁsa. You eat.” What is that girl who was kidnapped and she came to temple and married?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
That girl in Los Angeles?

Prabhupāda:
No, in New York.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Oh, Mūrti-vandya. Mūrti-vandya.

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Cannot go back.] Now, how they have become Kṛṣṇa conscious? And our men? They are dragged, somebody, to this conscious, that conscious, that conscious. Take this steady instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Try to implement. Everyone will be happy, everyone, undoubtedly. Take this seriously. It is not that because we are pushing Kṛṣṇa… We are not pushing something new, manufactured. It is already there. It is already there. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65].

This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So what do you think? Is it possible to push Kṛṣṇa consciousness on this line, strictly on Bhagavad-gītā? What do you think? It is not difficult, but we have made it difficult. Recently I had been to Vinoba Bhave’s aśrama. And there is no Kṛṣṇa, and he is writing Bhagavad-gītā pravacana or something like that. Even in Gandhi’s āśrama, Wardha, the Gandhi’s lantern is being worshiped. And where is Kṛṣṇa? So the Bhagavad-gītā’s instruction is mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, and they are worshiping Gandhi’s lantern. You had been with me?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
No, but I’ve seen it.

Prabhupāda:
You know, that so…

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Neither many people come there.

Kartikeya:
Sevagram.

Prabhupāda:
Nobody.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Kṛṣṇa temples are still full.

Prabhupāda:
And it is very nice place. How it could be developed as a Kṛṣṇa conscious center. But they have given up this idea. From externally… Now Vinoba Bhave is preaching Bhagavad-gītā pravacana how many years?

Mr. Dwivedi:
Nearly forty-fifty years.

Prabhupāda:
Fifty years. So what he has done? And within ten years what I have done?

Mr. Dwivedi:
He is also mixing Gītā with politics.

Prabhupāda:
Can I not say like that?

Mr. Dwivedi:
You are… What you preach is unadulterated Gītā. He mixes it with politics.

Prabhupāda:
That is my point.

Mr. Dwivedi:
You put one principle,

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto
mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru
mām evaiṣyasi kaunteya…
[Bg. 18.65]

Prabhupāda:
So what is beneficial, to preach Bhagavad-gītā as it is or adulterate it? Which is good? That is my point. Why should you talk of Bhagavad-gītā, adulterate? What is the benefit? And Kṛṣṇa says naṣṭaḥ. Hmm? [aside:] Bring Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ paran-tapa. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo… [Bg. 4.2]. You know that. Find out.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Fourth Chapter.

Prabhupāda:
How to understand Bhagavad-gītā? By the paramparā. Sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ paran-tapa. [Transl. That has been lost.] The paramparā-sūtra says that… [Transl. The knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā was lost due to unacceptance.]

Mr. Dwivedi:
Third Chapter…

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Fourth Chapter.

evaṁ paramparā-prāptam
imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ
sa kāleneha mahatā
yogo naṣṭaḥ paran-tapa
[Bg. 4.2]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. When the disciplic succession was broken, that knowledge was lost.] So what you will gain from [Transl. something that is lost and corrupted? Just like, a rasagulla, a good thing to eat. But it has gone bad, stale. What is the use of distributing it? Whoever will eat it, he will become sick. This is going on. The speaker of Bhagavad-gītā Himself, Bhagavāna is saying yoga nastah paran-tapa, the knowledge has been lost. So what you will gain from lost and corrupted thing? This is going on.

[Transl. The very first thing they do is spoil it, distort it. Interpret it in their own way. So it’s lost. What is the use of giving such a thing? That’s why there are so many readers of Bhagavad-gītā, but nobody understands a line of Bhagavad-gītā. The real thing is ruined, so what benefit will you derive? You be assured that we will not give you worthless thing. We won’t distribute spoiled thing. We won’t give distorted and bad thing.] We shall give pure. [aside: Please come.] Then you see how your country becomes happy. That is real dayā. [Transl. What is the use of giving bad thing? Simply waste of time.] Śrama eva hi kevalam [SB. 1.2.8]. [Transl. Śrīmad Bhāgavatam has declared it.]

bhaktim udasya te vibhoḥ kliśyanti
hi kevala-bodha-labdhaye
teṣāṁ kleśala eva avaśiṣyate
nānyat yathā sthūlaṁ tuṣāvaghaṭṭainam
[SB. 10.14.4]

Bhagavad-gītā is for bhakti. Bhakto ’si priyo ’si me rahasyaṁ hy etad uttamam [Bg. 4.3]: “I am speaking to you…” When Kṛṣṇa spoke to Arjuna Bhagavad-gītā to understand, he was not a vedāntī. He was not even a brāhmaṇa. He was not a sannyāsī. So why he was selected? Bhakto ’si. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55].

Without becoming kṛṣṇa-bhakta, what one will understand Bhagavad-gītā? A politician cannot understand. His motive is different. He cannot understand. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī… Bhakta… How to become bhakta? Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti. Kṛṣṇa says, “By bhakti one can understand.” He never said, “By jñāna, karma, yoga.” No. Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata… [Bg. 6.47].

Eh? What is that? Antar-ātmanā, śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ sa me yuktatamo… So if you want to organize on that line, then it will be successful. Otherwise it is waste of time. That is real cooperation, that we must accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is and preach as it is. Then people will be happy. Otherwise waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam [SB. 1.2.8].

vāsudeve bhagavati
bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ
janayaty āśu vairāgyaṁ
jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam
[SB. 1.2.7]

And that is wanted. [Transl. This is our main point.] Those who lead the sevā-saṅga, they must learn how to do benefit to the people. They must practically assimilate, apply in their practical life and teach others. Then it will be successful. There is no doubt. And the proof is here. In our foreign country… They are foreigners. They are practicing different religious system. Now, why they are taking to Kṛṣṇa con…? Millions of copies, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, we are selling. Kṛṣṇa book, how many?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Now about three and a half million copies, thirty-five lakhs copies.

Prabhupāda:
In Christmas festival… They are performing Christmas festival and purchasing our book, Kṛṣṇa book. Now they have accepted this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is three thousand years old or some thousands of…

Kartikeya:
Five thousand.

Prabhupāda:
No, thousands of years.

Kartikeya:
No, thousands of years.

Prabhupāda:
So do something the people will be benefited, actual. And the whole instruction is there. Then it will be successful. Otherwise… Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ [Bg. 9.12]. Find out this verse. Moghāśāḥ. [Transl. If you do something else, it will not be fruitful.]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Moghāśā jñānam.

Prabhupāda:
Hmm. [Transl. The mental speculator thinks “I am very learned.” mogha-jñānam. And the fruitive worker thinks “I am a big worker.” moghāśā.]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo
mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ
rākṣasīm āsurīṁ caiva
prakṛtiṁ mohinīṁ śritāḥ
[Bg. 9.12]

Prabhupāda:
That’s it. rākṣasi. [Transl. What is that demoniac nature? We will kill Kṛṣṇa. And read Bhagavad-gītā.] Learn the art how to kill Kṛṣṇa, and read Bhagavad-gītā. [Transl. Just see! That is demoniac. Who can rectify him? Vanish Kṛṣṇa. Do these readers and speakers of Bhagavad-gītā preach “Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavana svayam” or Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, [SB. 1.3.28] accept Him? Do they say? Then demoniac! Read Kṛṣṇa’s literature and kill Him! Then how will his desire be fulfilled?] moghāśāḥ, finished. [Transl. Great karmis?] mogha-karmāṇaḥ. [Transl. Great jnanis?] mogha-jñānāḥ. vicetasaḥ. Why? rākṣasi. [Transl. Kill Kṛṣṇa. Certainly a demon, Kamsa, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Who is Kṛṣṇa? Because he was a demon, he thought “Who is Kṛṣṇa anyway? Eliminate Kṛṣṇa altogether.” So you see and understand everything.] Whether you are prepared to cooperate with me on this line. Are you ready?

Mr. Dwivedi:
We also believe in unadulterated Gītā, [laughs] unadulterated Gītā.

Prabhupāda:
This is the line of action. [Transl. You will see, everything will be alright. There is no doubt about it.] Mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ [Bg. 18.68]. Asaṁśaya. [Transl. asaṁśaya means without any doubt. Sure. Where is that kind of faith?] Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6].

mām upetya kaunteya
duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam
nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ
saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ
[Bg. 8.15]

This is saṁsiddhi. If you want show, that is another thing. If you want saṁsiddhi, then you have to accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Samyak siddhi, sampūrṇa siddhi, samyak, saṁsiddhi. Find out this verse.

mām upetya kaunteya
duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam
nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ
saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ
[Bg. 8.15]

[Transl. Who studies all this?] So we have to give up this show bottle, that “I am a scholar of Bhagavad-gītā. I am so…”

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

mām upetya punar janma
duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam
nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ
saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ
[Bg. 8.15]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. He is a mahātmā or great soul.] This is the definition of mahātmā, not that I create mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ [Bg. 9.13]. [Transl. The Mahātmās have no engagement other than worshiping and serving the Supreme Lord.] This is mahātmā.

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante
jñānavān māṁ prapadyate
vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti
sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ
[Bg. 7.19]

That is mahātmā. sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. [Transl. Did Mahatma Gandhi ever say that Lord Vāsudeva is everything? Did he say? Hmm?] sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. [Transl. To find such a mahātmā is very difficult.] If you read Bhagavad-gītā, you must read properly, act properly. Then you’ll get the benefit. If you manufacture your ideas—useless waste of time. [Transl. If I go there I will preach like this.] Whether they’ll tolerate? Boliye.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Hmm?

Prabhupāda:
Whether they’ll be able to digest?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Bitter. Bitter medicine.

Prabhupāda:
Bitter pill.

Mr. Dwivedi:
I think there is greater room for digestion of unadulterated Gītā than for adulterated.

Prabhupāda:
Hmm?

Mr. Dwivedi:
And automatically, I do not know why, but I find Indians are religious.

Prabhupāda:
No, they will not accept it.

Mr. Dwivedi:
They are… Already they are in a mood of…

Prabhupāda:
No, that…

Mr. Dwivedi:
…without much effort on anybody’s part. I do not know why, whether it, the idea has come from, but it is there.

Prabhupāda:
No, that is everywhere. That is everywhere. Everywhere, every Indian is Kṛṣṇa conscious. By force we are making them otherwise. That is going on.

Mr. Dwivedi:
From whatever…, atomic forces or whatever forces of saints like you, but they take it… That air, that something is automatically coming up.

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Thus I have briefed you something preliminary.] If you agree to cooperate with me, you’ll see immediately. Because I want to deliver the real thing, therefore in my feeble health I am prepared to go. If one man can understand, that I want to see. I am traveling all over the world to see that at least one man may understand. They have spoiled the whole situation by misinterpreting, by malinterpreting, and by bringing some rascal and pose as leader. The whole world is spoiled. If you want to preach some rascal philosophy, you do. Why you take Bhagavad-gītā? That is cheating.

Mr. Dwivedi:
When we can preach something genuine… This life is so small. What…? Why…? Why should we be after something which is adulterated? Why not preach genuine, if at all we preach?

Prabhupāda:
Yes.

Mr. Dwivedi:
And for what purpose? Life itself is too short. For what purpose?

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. It is like smoking opium through someone else’s hands. I smoke opium through your hands. If someone asks “Did you smoke opium?” No! Ask him, his hands are smelly! This is going on.] “I preach something nonsense, and I take Bhagavad-gītā.” Why? Why you take Bhagavad-gītā? You… There are so many rascal philosophers. You also preach your own philosophy. Why do you take Bhagavad-gītā? And where is nonviolence in Bhagavad-gītā?

Indian man:
That side, people will be very active to know, these things.

Prabhupāda:
Yes. Where is nonviolence in Bhagavad-gītā, in politics?

Kartikeya:
Nowhere.

Prabhupāda:
No. Even that incidence I told you, the Duryodhana said, “You have come to, for kingdom? Yes, you can take.” So he said, “No, no. That we shall decide in the battlefield.” This is kṣatriya. “Oh, Duryodhana, you are so gentleman. Let us settle up. No, no, no.” “No! That will be settled in the battlefield.” This is Bhagavad-gītā. [Transl. He didn’t think “He is giving. Let me take it. Why take trouble?”] “No, we have come to the battlefield. We must decide by fighting.” This is kṣatriya. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam. [Transl. This is kṣatriya spirit. Why should I run away?] This is teaching of Bhagavad-gītā. Yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam. Then where this is nonviolence come in the Bhagavad-gītā? Apalāyanam. [Transl. Don’t run away.] “Come on. Fight. You have no weapon? Take from me.” This is kṣatriya. What is the definition?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Kṣatriya?

Prabhupāda:
Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

śauryaṁ tejo dhṛtir dākṣyaṁ
yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam
dānam īśvara-bhāvaś ca
kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam
[Bg. 18.43]

Prabhupāda:
Hmm? Śauryam…?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
“Śauryam—heroism; tejaḥ—power; dhṛtiḥ—determination; dākṣyam—resourcefulness; yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam—that he does not flee in the battlefield; dānam—generosity; īśvara—leadership.” Those are the qualities.

Mr. Dwivedi:
I don’t know whether in Mahābhārata or somewhere, Arjuna said, pratyaiva na denam nāpy apalāyanam[?].

Prabhupāda:
[aside:] Get light on that. [Transl. So all these things should be taught. We have to create Kṣatriyas, Brāhmaṇas, Vaiśyas. Real. There is so much work to be done. What is the use of creating Śūdras and animals? The modern education is meant for creating Śūdras. Go and work for others. “What is your qualification?” “I am B.A.” “What do you want?” “I am looking for a job.” Just see. Just like a dog. Otherwise sit at home idle. When there was no education system before, what they would do? They would take ten kilos dāl, go to the market, sell it and make a few rupees profit. Nowadays they are educated, they have become Śūdras and then no job! See? Is that education?] There was how many applications for five hundred posts?

Kartikeya:
These fifty application… Fifty posts and five thousand applications, twenty-five thousand applications.

Prabhupāda:
No, no. There were some thousands applications. [Transl. This is education! The farmers, as soon as they are educated they leave their village. They go to the cities and beg “Give me a job.” Is that education? When there was no education they used to earn their livelihood. Now they are educated, “Give me a job.” Then they have to rent a room to live in the city.]

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. By this modern education the Britishers have made us slaves. Our education system was…]

Prabhupāda:
Then śūdra-karma. Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. [Transl. As soon as they became dependent on others for job, they became Śūdra.] So strictly if you follow Bhagavad-gītā as it is, oh, then there will be heaven, everything. [Transl. And why not so? What is the use of wasting so much time for education? There is no need of education for Śūdras. There is no need of education for Vaiśyas. Only Kṣatriyas and Brāhmaṇas require education.] Jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.42].

[Transl. They require knowledge, they require education, because they will guide. That’s all. What is the need of education for Śūdras? You have to work for others. So why do you need education? Go and polish shoes anywhere. You will earn. paricaryā or service, suppose someone keeps a dog, the dog becomes happy. That’s how your position. So why do you need education? Unless somebody maintains you, it’s useless. You may be a big technologist, but unless you are employed by someone, what is the use of your education? You are like a dog. There are big, big technologists, but only if they are maintained by some Institute, they become happy. Of their own they cannot do anything. Therefore it is better you live in the village, engage in farming, kṛṣi go-rakṣa vāṇijyaṁ, eat sumptuously, and worship the Supreme Lord.] Simple life. [Transl. This program of Gandhiji I like very much. It is there in our Bhagavad-gītā. What is the need of big enterprises? kṛṣi go-rakṣa vāṇijyaṁ, that’s all. By protecting cows, even the cow dung and cow urine will be useful for us. If they give milk, it’s very good. And even if they don’t give milk their stool and urine are also good.]

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. Stool and urine? They are making a research nowadays and] it has been found as first-class antiseptic. [Transl. That is why] Particularly when we have got typhoids and that sort of sicknesses in the Hindu home, it is with gou- gobar or cow dung that the house is cleaned and…

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. The Supreme Lord Himself enjoyed pastimes with cows. He would catch hold of the calves’ tail and the calf would pull Him all over the place. And mother Yaśodā and others would laugh. “Look, what He is doing?” He was teaching that though I am the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I mix with cow dung and cow urine. This is His pastime. “I am Bhagavāna, but still I love cow, cow dung, cow urine everything.” This has to be taught. Here the rule is that nobody can keep cow in the cities. Here they will give injection. They don’t know how much benefit is there in maintaining cows? Give injection.] This is very dangerous civilization. If you want to save them from this dangerous civilization, you must push on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise there is no other way. [Transl. Try to understand this point.] Dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. Dhīra. [Transl. Knowledge and intelligence are all there. Do we have to manufacture them?]

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. Pardon?]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Knowledge is already there. So why are we talking this and that? What is the use of hearing from such persons who have no knowledge? He, Whom everyone accepts as guru, Vyāsadeva accepts, Nārada accepts, Asita, Devala, all the big, big acāryas, Rāmanujācārya, Madhvācārya, Vijayadhvaja, Caitanya Mahāprabhu-Caitanya Mahāprabhu, not long ago, became mad with love of Kṛṣṇa, should we accept Him, or we accept a cheater who propagates daridra-narayana? You have to give up all that. No restrictions on eating. “Eat whatever you like. Do whatever you want. As many opinions as many ways.” The Supreme Lord says “mam ekam or Me alone” and these people say “All paths are good.” Is that right? You manufacture your own paths and all are fine?] yato mata tato patha. [Transl. All paths are right. Gandhiji also promoted that path by saying “Killing cows is Muslims’ religion, so how can we stop it?” So if someone says “Slitting another’s throat is my religion, then what? The king will say “yes, cut his throat!” Secular! This is going on.] Secular state. [Transl. Our religion is to cut throat. “Yes. You are right. Cut as many throats as you like.” Then where will those poor people go whose throats are being cut? What is their religion? They never want that someone cuts their throat. So such people are not protected? They are also national! Who is a national? One who is born in the country.]

[break] [Transl. What wrong have the poor cows done? Hmm? Aren’t the poor cows throat cut? They are being mercilessly slaughtered. Is that sensible? Tell me do you agree with all these things? Hmm? As I am saying…]

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. Definitely you are right.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Then it’s alright. This is the real service which Gandhi didn’t do.] prāyaścitta-vimarṣaṇam. [Transl. Suppose there is a thief. If you instruct him, “My dear son, do not steal.” Like nowadays our Prime Minister tells the merchants that they should co-operate together, they should not do like this or that. Doesn’t he? Will everyone follow it?] Do you think they’ll do it?

Mr. Dwivedi:
No, I don’t.

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. One who is habituated to steal, there is a Bengali proverb “corā nā śone dharmera kahinī or the devil would not listen to the scriptures.” If you instruct a thief, “Dear child, don’t act like that. I have seen that whoever steals, he is punished. The scripture prohibits it. Will he listen? prāyaścitta vimarṣaṇam. He has to be taught.]

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. May be by knowledge some day he…]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. No, knowledge, the śāstra has summarised knowledge. By knowledge, tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena ca. [SB. 6.1.13] These are the process of knowledge.] But,

kecit kevalayā bhaktyā
vāsudeva-parāyaṇāḥ
aghaṁ kārstnyena dhunvanti…
[SB. 6.1.15]

nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. nīhāra… [Transl. That kuyāsā or fog, what you call in Hindi? The smoky thing in the morning?]

Mr. Dwivedi & Kartikeya:
[Transl. Kohrā.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Kohrā? In Bengali we say kuyāsā. No matter how hard you try to remove it, it won’t go away. May be little bit you can, but as soon as the sun rises everything will go away. nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. The sun has to be risen. The fog will vanish immediately. kecit kevalayā bhaktyā, only by devotional service. All atonement is done. And everything will be alright. This is written in the śāstra.]

kecit kevalaya bhaktya
vasudeva parayanah
agham karstnyena dhunvanti

[Transl. All sinful reactions will be completely washed away. How? nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. This is stated. Therefore introduce Kṛṣṇa Consciousness and everything will be alright. nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. Simply word jugglery and discourse will not yield any result. As I told you corā nā śone dharmera kahinī. Doesn’t a thief know that by stealing he will be punished? Forget about next life, he knows that if he is caught he must be punished in this life. Still secretly he steals, because he has no knowledge. Complete knowledge is acquired when one engages in devotional service.]

yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā
sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ
harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā
manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ
[SB. 5.18.12]

[Transl. People should be converted into devotees of Kṛṣṇa. That is real welfare. Then everything will be alright. Otherwise patch-work will not do. nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. Invoke the sun shine. That’s all. Everything will be alright.] And that is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

māṁ ca yo ’vyabhicāreṇa
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa guṇān samatītyaitān
brahma-bhūyāya kalpate
[Bg. 14.26]

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
na śocati na kāṅkṣati
samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
[Bg. 18.54]

Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi… [Bg. 18.55], tato māṁ tattvato jñātvā viśate tad-anantaram. [Transl. Everything is there in Bhagavad-gītā. Try to introduce this in every town and village, in each and every house. That will benefit all. Welfare for everyone.] So if you want, you can come also.

Kartikeya:
No, I’ll talk to Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. When are you going?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Well, we’re going to go tomorrow to book the tickets. We’ll be going…

Kartikeya:
After 6th.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Yeah, on the… We’ll be leaving on the 6th.

Prabhupāda:
Wait next day.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
No, well, we want to leave, I guess…

Prabhupāda:
Ah, Friday.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Friday.

Kartikeya:
You can take my ticket.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
We should get a ticket for you? Okay. Fine.

Kartikeya:
It’s a good opportunity for me to cure also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Oh, yeah?

Kartikeya:
We are going to this Anand near Ahmedabad for five days with Śrīla Prabhupāda. That was a very good reception there. So we can have the same type of… And we can see also with that, they have a good land and everything. [indistinct background discussion between them about booking tickets]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Introduce this everywhere, in each and every village. It will work like anything. What is the problem? We will have to make people happy. That’s it. sarve sukhinaḥ bhavantu. May all be happy. They don’t know anuthing. These leaders have misguided them. The most important point is this tathā dehāntara prāptir. [Bg. 2.13] People should be saved from that. Otherwise, if today I am Prime Minister and tomorrow I become a dog, then what is the benefit? That’s why they don’t believe in next life. The Supreme Lord is saying tathā dehāntara prāptir. You refuse that doesn’t mean you are right.] It is the law of nature; you cannot change it. [Transl. Suppose you tell a young man that he is going to become old. If he says “No, I won’t,” can he stop growing old? He must become old.]

Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi [Bg. 3.27]. You cannot stop it. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. [Transl. You have to change your body accordingly.]

ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā
madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ
jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-adho…
[Bg. 14.18]

[Transl. If our nature is most vile then you become a dog or a pig. Who will check it?] You cannot check the activities of material nature. [Transl. This ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā, [Bg. 3.27] the laws of nature, they want to go above it. That is ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā.] They do not know what the…, how nature’s law is working. And we are completely under the nature’s law.

daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī
mama māyā duratyayā
mām eva ye prapadyante
māyām etāṁ taranti te
[Bg. 7.14]

[Transl. Teach Bhagavad-gītā very nicely.] We have got Hindi also. [Transl. Preach this in each and every house. People will be greatly benefitted. The poor people are not being educated about this. Like merchants they are kept in darkness. No use.] You are all young men. Do you think what I am speaking is right or wrong?

Mr. Dwivedi:
Right.

Indian man (2):
Right.

Prabhupāda:
Right? [laughs] Thank you.

Mr. Dwivedi:
When we told him yesterday, so he was interested to come today.

Prabhupāda:
Very good.

Mr. Dwivedi:
In Gītā he was interested.

Prabhupāda:
Very good.

Indian man (2):
In Gītā I am more interested.

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Become a very good preacher. This is real welfare. Why you want to keep people in illusion, and make them ass? One ass is electing another ass as the leader. This is going on.] Śva-viḍ-varāha-uṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB. 2.3.19]. [Transl. What to say? If we get about ten young men our work will be successful. There will be huge preaching. There will be no difficulty. Everyone will be happy. Guaranteed.]

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. But according to Bhagavad-gītā: sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ [Bg. 18.45]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Not sve sve karma,] Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. [Transl. Everybody has to engage in performing bhajan, kirtana.]

Mr. Dwivedi:
But now everybody has become a śūdra.

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Pull them. Uplift them. Some may become Brāhmaṇa. See them? Śūdra or Śūdrādhama or lower than Śūdras-mlecchas. Why not? Have they not become Brāhmaṇa? Everyone can become. guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. This is education. One who is qualified, make him a brāhmaṇa?]

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. Yes. cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13] ]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Bring brahminical qualities in him, he will become a Brāhmaṇa. If one has Kṣatriya qualities then he is a Kṣatriya. Where is this education? Everything is gaddalika-pravāha or blind following.]

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. Mahārāja, perhaps blocks are available here?]

Prabhupāda:
Eh?

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. Blocks. Does Gosvāmījī have it?]

Prabhupāda:
Eh?

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. Your blocks will be available?]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Block. Block we don’t keep.]

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. Photographs will be available I am sure.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Yes. Photograph.] So give him photograph, my photograph. Bring some photograph.

Mr. Dwivedi:
All right. [Transl. Please give me some kind of letter. Also give me some tentative dates] so that can be fixed, that Your Holiness will be reaching there about the 6th.

Prabhupāda:
Yes. That letter…

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. You sign that letter and give me. Your signature on that letter.] In that letter, whatever changes you want to make, make changes. Kindly put the date 6th, that His Grace should be reaching Gwalior on the 6th.

[break]

Prabhupāda:
Do… Otherwise call him.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Or Pohri otherwise, Pohri on the 7th.

Prabhupāda:
Call him.

Mr. Dwivedi:
Pohri on the 7th, morning.

Prabhupāda:
That’s all right. [Transl. We still have a lot of work to do. By bluffing nothing will be achieved. Sincerely we have to do. Bhāratvarṣa is a sacred land. If people of this place remain foolish then what?] So that letter…

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Is it required to give letter like that, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda:
Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
I mean…

Prabhupāda:
And…

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
That letter is… It’s required to give him a letter like that?

Prabhupāda:
If he wants, give him a tentative date.

Mr. Dwivedi:
You kindly give me one or two photographs.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
I don’t have any photographs like that.

Mr. Dwivedi:
You don’t have.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
But you can get them. I can tell you the person to see who may have them. Amogha-līlā. I can give you his name.

Prabhupāda:
So ask him, Amogha-līlā. Why he shall go?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Yeah, I… We have no photos.

Prabhupāda:
No, no, you have no; Amogha-līlā has got.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
Yeah.

Prabhupāda:
So bring some. Give him.

Mr. Dwivedi:
And then you arrange for that date, that His Grace will be reaching Pohri on the 7th.

Prabhupāda:
Tentative date.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
So when do you want the letter? Immediately? You want the letter immediately?

Mr. Dwivedi:
Yes. Yes, you see, because I am leaving tomorrow. Before I go, I meet some press people. I will be able to show them this letter. I say…

Prabhupāda:
Yes.

Mr. Dwivedi:
…on that basis, they’ll be able to submit that news.

Prabhupāda:
[chants japa] If actually government follows Bhagavad-gītā, then they should stop this cow slaughter immediately. Go-rakṣya. If you want to eat meat, there are so many other animals. But don’t touch cow. What is this? Ten thousand cows are being killed every day. And you are preaching nonviolence.

[chants japa]

Mr. Dwivedi:
Then I may take that letter from there.

Prabhupāda:
Yes.

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. If I get time or there is something urgent then I will again rush up.]

Prabhupāda:
No, you are welcome always.

Mr. Dwivedi:
[Transl. To arrange these things are little expensive] but you have got to do it.

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. No problem.]

[chants japa.]

Jaya. prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā. [SB. 10.22.35]

[rings bell] Gopīnātha?

Gopīnātha:
Yes, Prabhupāda. [end]