Evening Darśana
required to kill somebody, he'll do that—if it is required for his sense gratification.
Prabhupāda:
…required to kill somebody, he’ll do that—if it is required for his sense gratification. There are many instances that a woman is addicted to another man, and she has killed her husband, killed her son. Why? Sense gratification. I have seen one woman, my Godbrother’s wife, she killed her son for being implicated with another man. I have seen it. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB. 5.5.4]. Things which are not to be done, they do it. Why? For the matter of sense gratification. They do it. That’s a fact. So therefore simply for sense gratification they are prepared to do anything. That means pāpa. It is the verdict of the court that when a man kills another man he becomes mad. Without becoming mad, a man cannot kill another man. So everything is being done which is not sanctioned because for sense gratification. The whole world business is sense gratification. And at the end, when he’s little spiritually inclined, he wants to satisfy senses by thinking artificially that “I shall become God.” That is the greatest sense gratification. Because remaining a small living entity I have been hampered in my sense gratification. Now let me become God so that there will be no restriction of my sense gratification. [Transl. Become Bhagavān.] Because he has failed to satisfy his senses remaining non-Bhagavān, now he wants to become Bhagavān. Yogī, that is also another sense gratification, that if I show some magic, if I can create little gold like this, hundreds and thousands of men will be after me and I shall live very nicely, just gratify my senses. These things are going on practically. The man who is manufacturing gold, and so many rich people are coming to his disciples and he’s begging for a motorcar. If he can create gold, why he cannot create a motorcar? This is going on.
[long Hindi conversation, with different guests arriving and leaving]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. I was speaking in English. What is your question? What question you have?]
Indian man:
[Transl. Gurujī, I gave 5000 rupees loan to somebody. He told me that he will return within six months. But till now he has not returned the loan.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Who took the loan?]
Indian man:
[Transl. Pardon?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Who took the 5000 loan?]
Indian man:
[Transl. One my friend. He has a printing press.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. So what am I to do?]
Indian man:
[Transl. He works in a printing press. His name is Pradeep.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. What is the use of bringing that question to me?]
Indian man:
[Transl. I tried my best to recover it.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. But what can I do?]
Indian man:
[Transl. Tell me any way to recover it.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Just see! I have to tell the way! Is that a question? This is not my job. Help me in my sense gratification. Help me get my 5000 rupees back then you are a big sādhu. I am not able to recover that 5000 rupees. If you help me get it back by some mantra then I will treat you as a great sādhu. Otherwise not. This is going on. Sādhu’s business is to help recover someone’s money from the debtor who is refusing to pay back. Chant some mantra. Is this a question to a sādhu? This is going on. This is going on. People go to sādhu and say, Mahārāja, I have got pain in my stomach. And the sādhu gives him some medicine and he becomes a big sādhu. You go to court. Why to a sādhu?]
Indian man (1):
[Transl. That is the job of the court. You approach a sādhu and inquire from him about the Supreme Lord, about devotional service to the Supreme Lord and topics related to the Supreme Lord. Why are you asking about temporary illusory things?]
Indian man:
[Transl. Can we not ask about any subject?]
Indian man (1):
[Transl. Not anything and everything.]
Indian man:
[Transl. If I get that money I will donate it to Kṛṣṇa.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Kṛṣṇa doesn’t want your donation. You forget it.]
Indian man (1):
[Transl. What can you give to He who gives to everyone?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. If we help you to get 5000 rupees then you will give to Kṛṣṇa. Now you give whatever few rupees you have got with you.]
Indian man (1):
[Transl. You had to give so you gave. If you are destinded to get it back you will get. People like you come to a sādhu and in this way spoil your and others good opportunity. Others may have good intention to know about devotional service and the Supreme Lord.]
Prabhupāda: [Transl. Who is called a sādhu? Who does the Supreme Lord call a sādhu?
api cet su-durācāro
bhajate mām ananya-bhāk
sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ
[Bg. 9.30]
[Transl. One who worships the Supreme Lord without deviation, he is a sādhu. vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19] Such a mahātma is very rare for he accepts Lord Vāsudeva as everything. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante. Therefore who is a devotee, who is a mahātmā, it is all explained by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, he is sādhu. One should inquire about how to worship the Supreme Lord from him. There are other methods how to get money. These things are going on nowadays. One should learn from a sādhu how to perform austerity. How we can attain the Supreme Lord’s shelter that we should ask.]
Indian man:
[Transl. Kindly bless me so that I may never forget the Supreme Lord and may He fulfill whatever ambition I have. This is what I pray from you.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. That is all right. May God bless you.]
Indian man:
[Transl. Also may my mind never be attracted to sinful activities. May I always speak truth and walk on the path of honesty. This is my prayer.]
Indian man:
Jaya Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda:
Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Indian lady:
[Transl. Should the Lord’s name be sung?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Hmm? Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. [Śikṣāṣṭaka 3, Cc Ādi.17.31] Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ. [Bg. 9.14] Always chant His name.
Indian lady:
[Transl. Household works to be done.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Do your work. What’s the loss in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa?]
Indian lady:
[Transl. While working I can chant?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Do it. Start first of all. The Supreme Lord said satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ. “Always chant My name.” If you are unable to chant always then chant as much as possible. But do it. Perform kīrtana together as much as possible. Sit down and perform kīrtana.]
Indian lady:
[Transl. I get angry very much. How can I subdue it?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Anger. Just like Hanumanji did it. Krodha bhakta-dveṣi jane. [Śrī Narottama Dāsa Ṭhākura. Prema Bhakti Candrika. Song 3. Stanza 10] Just like Hanumanjī set fire in Rāvaṇa’s palace. Can anyone set fire in another’s house without anger? So use anger properly. Otherwise why did he burn Rāvaṇa’s house? The foolish rascal kidnapped Sitājī, so he burned his house. So use anger upon those who are demons and nondevotees.]
Indian lady:
[Transl. I get so much angry.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. So use it so much. He burned his house. What could be more wrath than this? If it came to burning someone’s house then what is left?]
Indian lady:
[Transl. I get angry very quickly.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. How angry you become? You can’t be that much angry. How much angry can you become? Can you burn someone’s house? But Hanumānjī did it. Therefore even today people worship him. Simply because he displayed his anger. The poor Hanumān cannot even study Vedānta. How could he read Vedānta? He was an animal—a monkey. But he showed his anger for Rāma’s sake, not for himself. Therefore he is worshipable. Anger also has usage. For God’s sake. Krodha bhakta-dveṣi jane. One who does not accept the Supreme Lord and who gives trouble to the devotees, he is a fit candidate for anger. Be mad at him. Burn his house. This is the evidence. Anger can be used. You have anger you use it at proper place.]
Indian lady:
[Transl. But anger causes harm too.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Harm, leave it on the Lord. Do it for Him.]
Indian lady:
[Transl. How will I know it’s for the Lord?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Know or not know that’s your…What I say is that you have got anger, you can use it for good cause. Use anger for the sake of the Lord. Just like Hanumānjī did. He was a Mahājana. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ. As the great Mahājanas and devotees have done so previously…Hanuman had anger therefore he utilised it. Similarly you have anger you also use it. Krodha bhakta dveṣi jane. You be angry at those who are averse to the Supreme Lord. Thus when your anger would be used you would feel peaceful.]
Indian man:
[Transl. How to chant the Supreme Lord’s name? Kindly tell me.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. What is he asking?]
Indian man (1):
[Transl. Tell me how to chant the Lord’s name?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Don’t you see how to chant? How to tell? You don’t have eyes? How do they chant? They perform kīrtana whole day. Is it difficult? You watch how they do kīrtana. You also do like that. What is there to learn? Any child can do it. That day the little boy did kīrtana. Is it not? What is there to learn? One who sees can learn. [aside:] Please come. Oh! Come. By watching you learn. Just like I explained about how Hanumānjī used his anger. How to perform kīrtana? You see how these boys are doing you learn. One who learns by watching he is very smart. And one who is taught by force, do this, do that, he takes long time. A person who learns by seeing he is intelligent. Learn by watching. Ideal. Ideal is everything. One learns things by live example. This is our process. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Mahābhārata, Vana-pārva 313.117, Cc Madhya 17.186]
[Transl. You simply follow the path displayed by the great devotees you will learn everything. Tarko ’pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā. To learn by argument…You will argue and I will refute it by my argument, somebody else will put forth his argument. In this way there is no use. And if we study Vedas and Vedānta, there also we will find one Veda is saying something and another Veda is saying something else. Tarko ’pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā. If we try to establish philosophical conclusion, nāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam [Cc. Madhya 17.186], one sage cannot subdue another sage. Therefore their philosophy will differ from one another. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. That’s why the truth of religion is very serious matter. So how can one learn? Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ. One should follow the path shown by the exalted personalities. According to our Vedic system the mahājanas are ācāryas. Śrī-sampradāya, Rudra-sampradāya, Brahma-sampradāya and Kumāra-sampradāya. The śāstra has selected who are the mahājanas.]
svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ
kumāraḥ kapilo manuḥ
prahlādo janako bhīṣmo
balir vaiyāsakir vayam
[SB. 6.3.20]
[Transl. These are Mahājanas. Nāradajī, Brahmājī, Mahādeva-Śivajī, Kapila, Manu, Prahlāda Mahārāja, Janaka Mahārāja, Bhīṣmadeva. Twelve mahājanas. This is the verdict of the śāstra. As they have done in their lives if we follow their ideal examples then we too will learn. What is the difficulty? No difficulty.]
Indian lady:
[Transl. Tulsī Dāsa’s Rāmāyana says people of Kali-yuga will be delivered by chanting the name of Rāma. Lord Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā to become sthita-prajña through dhyāna-yoga.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. You chant the name of Rāma you will become sthita-prajña.]
Indian lady:
[Transl. How to perform meditation?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. This is meditation. You chant the holy name of the Supreme Lord and think of Him. This is dhyāna-yoga. If you chant the name of Rāma you automatically remember Rāma. Rāma with bow and arrow, Sītājī is sitting by His side, Hanumānjī is there, Lakṣmaṇa is there. You will automatically remember. What’s the difficulty? If you take someone’s name immediately his whole activities comes to your mind. Is it not? Similarly, if you chant Rāma’s name you will also remember Him simulteniously. dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yogino [SB. 12.13.1] If you deeply meditate on the Supreme Personality of Godhead then you become a yogi. There is no harm. It’s all right. And if have already decided that Rāma has no hands, no legs, no eyes, no nose, then who would you meditate upon? That will be simply troublesome. teṣām asau kleśala eva śiṣyate [SB. 10.14.4] What is the use of beating the husk. What will you get? Nothing. nānyad yathā sthūla-tuṣāvaghātinām [10.14.4] Meditate on the Supreme Lord. Chant the holy name of the Supreme Lord. That is yoga. That is samadhi: trance. Śāstra states dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yogino. What is the meaning of meditation? To constantly engage the mind in thinking of the Lord’s lotus feet is called samādhi.]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. Mahārājajī, is the way of attaining Śakti, and attaining liberation one and the same thing or different?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. What do you mean by liberation?]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. Śakti.*]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Śakti?*]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. Just like the worshipers of Śakti attain Śakti.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. No. They don’t achieve liberation. Nothing. Śakti is material power. There is no question of liberation in it. Material power is considered Śakti. Dhanaṁ dehi, rūpam dehi, rūpavatī bhāryāṁ dehi, dehi, dehi: give wealth, beauty, beautiful wife, give, give. You take and be entangled. Don’t those who want material opulence become entangled? Do you know this or not?]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. Yes.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Then? So by attaining material opulence you will become further bound. This is the gain.]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. We offer prayers to the goddess.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. That is not liberation. That is to become more entangled. To worship Śakti is a low grade adoration. One who desires material power, he is a worshiper of Śakti-Durgā. When he analises and sees fire is more powerful then he worships Agni-fire. When he realises that fire originates from Sūrya, then he worships Sūrya-sungod. Śakti. There are worshipers of Durgā, Ganapati, Sūrya and so on. They are called pañcopāsaka: five god worshiper. This is accilivity. Finally the Visnu worship. It is the gradual step. Actually worship of Viṣṇu is the topmost. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ [SB. 7.5.31] *After worshiping all others when one actually understands, he worships Visnu. ārādhanānāṁ sarveṣāṁ viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param [Padma Puraṇa] Viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param. Ordinary people do not know. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ. They do not know what is their self interest. That is why they sometimes approach Durgā, sometimes Agni, sometimes Ganapati and so on. Pañcopāsaka. And Lord Viṣṇu personally comes and says that you give up all this. sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ [Bg. 18.66] You will achieve all perfection. yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ [Bg. 6.22] One who attains the Supreme Lord’s mercy, he no longer wants anyone else’s mercy. svāmin kṛtārtho ’smi varaṁ na yāce [Hari-bhakti-sudhodaya 7.28, Cc Madhya22.42] He doesn’t want anything else.]
Indian man (3):
[Transl. Svāmijī, how does darśana take place? Darśana of the Supreme Lord, darśana of Īśvara, darśana of God, darśana of Kṛṣṇa, darśana of Rāma. What does it really mean and how I will realize that I am having darśana of Rāma?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. First of all you must decide Who do you want to see? Just now I was explaining about Śakti, Ganapati, Sūrya and other types of worship. What you want? And accordingly the process of worship can be explained. First of all] you must fix up what you want.
Indian man (1):
What is realization?
Prabhupāda:
Realization-everything is realization. If you can do business well, that is also realization.
Indian man (1):
Realization of God.
Prabhupāda:
Then you, if you want…
Indian man (1):
Realization of God.
Prabhupāda:
Realization of God, [Transl. That the Supreme Personality of Godhead has said], bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. So “If you want to know Me, then bhaktyā, bhakti.” [Transl. He didn’t say through jñāna, through karma or through yoga you can approach Me. No.] Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ. If you want to know God really, then you have to take this path, bhakti. If you want something else, that is a different thing.
yānti-deva vratā devān
pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
bhūtejyā yānti bhūtāni
mad-yājino ’pi yānti mām
[Bg. 9.25]
Indian man:
[Transl. Prabhupāda, there are differences of opinion whether God has a form or God is formless. But if you keep in mind that God has a form then you can concentrate your mind on the Lord in the heart and thus worship Him and render devotional service unto Him. But you cannot concentrate your mind on formless. What is your consideration about this? Can one go to formless via form or one can directly approach formless?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. First of all try to understand the meaning of formless. Formless means to deny the form. Nir-akāra. Ākāra is there. But you deny it. Just like in the i it is said paśyaty acakṣuḥ [Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 3.18]: “The Supreme Lord sees but He has no eyes. “i. These considerations are there. Now one should think that if He has no eyes how does He see? This should be considered. Paśyaty acakṣuḥ. Acakṣuḥ is nirākāra and paśyaty is ākāra. Therefore you have to conclude that the Supreme Lord sees but He hasn’t got eyes like us. This is the meaning of nirākāra. Just like we are seeing, seeing everything in this room, but we can’t see anything on the other side of the wall. And the Supreme Personality of Godhead sees everything. Sarvataḥ pāṇi-pādaṁ tat [Bg. 13.14] He has hands and legs everywhere. Therefore one should consider that the Supreme Lord has hands, legs, everything, but not like us. This is the conclusion. He is nirākāra means He has no ākāra like us. And His hands and legs that is His ākāra. Therefore śāstra says īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]
[Transl. His ākāra is saccidānanda. Sat-cit-ānanda. Where saccidānanda concept prevails there this body becomes nirākāra. Because this body is not sat, it is asat. antavanta ime dehā [Bg. 2.18] “This body will be finished. “The Supreme Personality of Godhead has a body but His body is not perishable. Therefore the Supreme Lord says that when I descend, foolish people think I have got a perishable body. Kṛṣṇa is an ordinary person. [aside:] Come. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11] Because I have appeared with two hands and legs foolish people think I am one of them. But actually His form is eternal, full of knowledge and bliss. Sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā. [Bg. 4.6] These statements are there in the Bhagavad-gītā. The Supreme Lord’s body is not like our body. Janma karma ca me divyam evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9] If one just understands how the Supreme Lord’s body is, he becomes liberated. But he doesn’t understand. He thinks Kṛṣṇa is like him. Māyāvādis also say that when the Supreme Lord comes He takes on a material body. This is their conception. So nirākāra means that the Supreme Personality of Godhead has no material ākāra. The Supreme Lord’s body is sat-cit-ānanda. Had He not been saccidānanda, would He be able to lift Govardhan hill at the age of seven? Answer?]
Indian man:
[Transl. Prabhu, what I meant was that while worshiping if there is a Deity of the Supreme Lord or a picture of Him in front of me, it is easier to concentrate and meditate upon. But to meditate on the formless is just not possible.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Therefore the Supreme Lord has said…]
Indian man:
[Transl. Should we approach formless through form?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Why formless? The goal is not to attain the formless. You don’t know what kind of form the Supreme Lord has. You have to remove that ignorance. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is not nirākāra. He is sat-cit-ānanda vigraha. The word ‘vigraha’ means form. so why do you want to make the Lord’s vigraha as nirākāra? And those who at all want make God nirākāra, for them kleśo ’dhikataras teṣām [Bg. 12.5] They simply labor hard and gain nothing.] Find out this verse.
Indian man:
[Transl. In the śāstra it is said that the duration of life in Kali-yuga is less, so by chanting the Lord’s name one achieves the desired result. Is that…]
Prabhupāda:
Somebody, you can read? [rings bell] [Transl. First of all try to understand that the Supreme Lord is not nirākāra. God does have a form.] Somebody… Why don’t you send? What they are doing, all these rascals, that they cannot read?
Devotee:
Someone should come in?
Prabhupāda:
Yes. But they do not know that somebody should remain there. Why they are there? What they are doing there?
Hari-śauri:
Harikeśa is typing. Pradyumna is reading Sanskrit books.
Prabhupāda:
Just see. Send Pradyumna immediately. Kleśo ’dhikarataras teṣām avyaktasakta-cetasam. Kleśa. Beginning with kleśa. [devotees tries to find verse] You could not? Kleśa. K-l-e-s. Why don’t you come here? And who will find out? Come here.
Devotee:
Kleśo ’dhikarataras teṣām?
Prabhupāda:
Why do you say that you do not find? Find out. They are not accustomed. Kleśo’dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta-cetasām [Bg. 12.5]. [Transl. This the Supreme Lord Himself has declared. Those who cultivate nirākāra they simply end up in taking more trouble. So you had trouble and that had to happen. Śāstra already declared. How can you get happiness? When śāstra says kleśo’dhikataras teśām, there must be more trouble. So where is the question of happiness? Śāstra said it.]
[Pradyumna enters] Read it.
Pradyumna:
kleśo ’dhikataras teṣām
avyaktāsakta-cetasām
avyaktā hi gatir duḥkhaṁ
dehavadbhir avāpyate
[Bg. 12.5]
Prabhupāda:
Ah. Avyaktā hi gatir duḥkham. [Transl. By meditating on unmanifested there is only trouble and nothing else.] Read it.
Pradyumna:
“For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied.”
Prabhupāda:
Yes. [Transl. By following that path you will only gain more trouble, the Supreme Lord Himself says this. So how will you achieve happiness?] You are expecting happiness by thinking of impersonal form of the Lord. That is not possible. You simply get troubles, that’s all. [Transl. You are intelligent and fortunate hence you had this realization. And one who is foolish, he suffers trouble and sticks to that same path. He knows it is troublesome still he follows that path. Such a fool. The Lord is kind to you that look, this path is troublesome. Why to follow this path? This is the Supreme Lord’s mercy upon you. Does anyone gladly want to take trouble? Only a fool wants. Why should an intelligent person take to the troublesome path? Here is so much happiness. See the Lord’s Deity form nicely decorated. They are dancing and singing. Is it blissful, or nirākāra, there is nothing, only sky and sky. What is the gain? The Supreme Lord Himself said this.] What is the purport?
Pradyumna:
“The group of transcendentalists who follow the path of the inconceivable, unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme Lord are called jñāna-yogis, and persons who are in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, engaged in devotional service to the Lord, are called bhakti-yogis. Now here the difference between jñāna-yoga and bhakti-yoga is definitely expressed.”
Prabhupāda:
Kṛṣṇa personally says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. [Transl. Then why you want to take the path of jñāna? If you want to know the Supreme Lord, and the Supreme Lord is telling bhaktyā mām abhijānāti then why you adopt the path of jñāna? Then you suffer miseries. Teṣām asau kleśala eva śiṣyate nānyad yathā sthūla-tuṣāvaghātinām [SB. 10.14.4] The Supreme Lord has explained two ways. Avyaktāsakta-cetasāṁ. [Bg. 12.5] One who is attached to the impersonal feature, he suffers more.] If you like to tolerate adi-kleśa, that is your choice. Otherwise, Bhagavān, sac-cid-ānanda…
śrī vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-
śṛṅgāra-tan-mandira-mārjanādau
yuktasya bhaktāṁś ca niyuñjato ’pi
vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam [Transl. You worship the Deity form of the Lord, decorate Him very nicely, offer Him some foodstuffs and enjoy His remnants. Perform kīrtana and dance. You will feel great happiness. If you abandon the path of happiness and take to the path of distress that is your wish.] You can accept any way. That is your choice.
ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis
tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ
goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūto
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
[Bs. 5.37] [Transl. This is there in the śāstra.] Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa vigraha. Sac-cid-ānanda vigraha [Bs. 5.1]. Why would He be nirākāra? Why do you want to artificially make the personal Godhead into impersonal? What will you gain by this? Answer this? You said you will reach nirākāra via sakāra. He already possesses a saccidānanda vigraha and from that you want to go to nirākāra. He also has a nirākāra form. He is everything. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB. 1.2.11] Bhagavān or the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the original form. So rejecting that form…Jusy like the sungod. The sungod is in the sun planet. And his effulgence is spread everywhere. This illumination that we perceive is directly coming from the body of the sungod. So what is the need to come here from there? Rather you go there from here. From the sun rays or sun shine you gradually promote yourself to the sun planet. Then from there you approach the sungod and have his darśana. Isn’t this the process or go to the sun planet, take darśana of Sūryadeva and return back to the sun shine? What kind of consideration is that? Answer? Should you go there from here or come here from there?]
Indian lady:
[Transl. Through bhakti-yoga, can’t jñāna-yoga be achieved?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. One who has got bhakti he has already got jñāna-yoga. He who has bhakti… Without being a jñāni, how will one become bhakta? Until one has got full knowledge that Bhagavān is like this, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate. [Bg. 7.19] Until you have full knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead how will you understand Him? Is it cheap to understand the Supreme Lord?
manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu
kaścid yatati siddhaye
yatatām api siddhānāṁ
kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ
[Bg. 7.3]
[Transl. To understand Bhagavān is not an ordinary thing. Thousands of millions of people endeavor to achieve perfection of life. And none out of those who have achived perfection understand Bhagavān. To know the Supreme Lord is difficult.]
Indian lady:
[Transl. Can’t the Supreme Lord be known by jñāna?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. When one comes to full knowledge then he understands Bhagavan. If one does not understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead then what is the value of his knowledge? He is ignorant. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo [Bg. 15.15]. After studying the Vedas and Vedānta if you don’t understand Bhagavān then what is the use of your stydying?]
Indian lady:
[Transl. Generally it is seen love is applied in bhakti.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Read the scriptural statements. How can a person who has no knowledge understand the Supreme Lord? Therefore one who has realised the Supreme Lord he must have got knowledge. And what is the value of his knowledge who has not understood the Supreme Lord? Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo. Veda-jñāna. Veda means knowledge. What is the purpose of all the Vedas? To understand the Bhagavān, it doesn’t matter what Veda you refer. If you haven’t reached there, if you don’t have knowledge about the Supreme Personality of Godhead then how can you claim to be a jñāni? You are ignorant. Knowledge, even a carpenter has got some knowledge. More or less everyone has got some knowledge. But one who has complete knowledge he understands Bhagavān. Everyone has knowledge. Even a child has. Every living entity has some knowledge. It is not a question of little or partial knowledge, but full knowledge. One who possesses full knowledge he will understand the Supreme Lord. That is called full knowledge.]
Indian lady:
[Transl. Maharājajī, how to remove ahaṅkāra?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. False ego, if you have stubbornly decided that you are a big jñāni, then how will false ego go away? First of all think yourself to be a great fool. Then you will be enlightened. So long you don’t realize that you are a great fool, you will continue to remain an ignorant.
[break] You are fortunate.]
Indian lady:
[Transl. I disturbed you so much and took so much of your time.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Has the Doctor Sāheb come?]
Indian lady:
[Transl. No.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Your son is very good.]
Indian lady:
[Transl. Perhaps by the end of this month we are going to Detroit.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Go. Now we have a big palatial building there. Fifty years ago, to construct that building, it took six million dollars.]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. The one in London?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. No. Detroit.]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. In London also you have got a huge…I have seen it.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Yes, in London. In Paris also. Big palace. Jaya.]
Indian lady:
[Transl. Gurujī, Some people say that you worship and pray to the Lord…]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Forget about some people.]
Indian lady:
[Transl. …You do something about half an hour or one hour. That way you can’t fix your mind.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. We don’t care what other people comment. Talk about śāstra.]
Indian lady:
[Transl. So if we cannot fix our mind then we shouldn’t do anything?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. The first point is we should discuss what the śāstras have said.]
Indian lady:
[Transl. We sit for one hour or half an hour for prayer, but if we cannot concentrate then it is a waste of time. So they say why don’t you rather do it for two minutes with concentration? Suppose I cannot concentrate does it mean I shouldn’t sit for pūja?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. It is a big subject matter. You just read Bhagavad-gītā and follow the direction given in it. Everything is explained there. Some people say, many people will say many things. What is the use of their ideas?]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. Dhyānaṁ nirviṣayam manaḥ.* Make the mind free from sense gratification.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. The mind will be free from sense gratification only when you fix your mind on the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Desire for sense gratification you must have. The mind can never remain empty. If you want to accept one thing then you must give up the other thing. It won’t remain vacant. However, if you take Kṛṣṇa then your mind will be free from sense gratification. And if you don’t take shelter of Kṛṣṇa then the mind will remain engrossed in sense gratification. This is the point.]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. By practice and detachment the mind can be controlled.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Bhakti-yoga* means the path of detachment. [aside:] Please come. Why are you on the back? You came just now?]
Indian man (3):
[Transl. I came long time ago.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Narottama Dāsa Ṭhākura has sung a song viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā, [Śrī Śrī Gaura-Nityānander Dayā 2]. In order to merge into the mellow of the Supreme Personality of Godhead you will have to give this viṣaya-rasa. Viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā, mukhe bala hari hari.]
Indian man (3):
[Transl. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said this.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. No, Narottama Dāsa Ṭhākura. He was a great devotee. He said this. Jaya. Oh no, Locana Dāsa Ṭhākura. The Supreme Lord has also said in one place.]
Bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām. Find out this verse.
bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ
tayāpahṛta-cetasām
vyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ
samādhau na vidhīyate
[Bg. 2.44]
[Transl. One whose mind is very much attached to sense gratification and opulence his mind cannot attain trance.] Find out.
Pradyumna:
bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ
tayāpahṛta-cetasām
vyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ
samādhau na vidhīyate
[Bg. 2.44]
“In the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence, and who are bewildered by such things, the resolute determination of devotional service to the Supreme Lord does not take place.”
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. This is a disqualification.]
Surendra Kumar Saigal:
Your Divine Grace, how long are you staying at Vṛndāvana?
Prabhupāda:
I’m going… Oh, Vṛndāvana? Three weeks.
Surendra Kumar Saigal:
When you are…
Prabhupāda:
Any time your home.
Surendra Kumar Saigal:
Any time which is convenient to Your Divine Grace. Shall I come over to Vṛndāvana on the 15th evening? Fifteenth evening, I’ll come over to Vṛndāvana?
Prabhupāda:
Oh, yes.
Surendra Kumar Saigal:
And then what is the program? Your Divine Grace is coming back to Delhi from Vṛndāvana after three weeks’ stay?
Prabhupāda:
They have made program to go to Chandigarh.
Surendra Kumar Saigal:
Chandigarh. You can leave so that it won’t be very inconvenient. Your Divine Grace can go to Aligarh. From Aligarh to Delhi. The route is almost the same distance from here to Vṛndāvana. And you can go to Vṛndāvana via Aligarh. About five miles, eight miles difference. It won’t cost you much mileage-wise.
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Driving by road is o.k.]
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa:
No. The road is okay. You suggest we should go to Vṛndāvana via Aligarh?
Surendra Kumar Saigal:
In my opinion you should. I heard that road is very bad. Five or six kilometers they have raised the road by about six, seven feet, and all this is all mud and muck, and the car skids. In my opinion, you go via Aligarh. Ghaziabad, Khurja, Aligarh, Iglas…
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa:
Or we can come to Aligarh from Vṛndāvana.
Surendra Kumar Saigal:
I’m suggesting because I don’t want to [indistinct] go back to Vṛndāvana and then come. [indistinct]
[Gopāla Kṛṣṇa converses with Indians about which road to take]
Surendra Kumar Saigal: I’m suggesting because I don’t want His divine grace to go back to Vṛndāvana and then come. When you are returning to Delhi I suggest from Vṛndāvana to Aligarh and from Aligarh to Delhi. And then to Chandigarh. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We should go to Aligarh on the way to Chandigarh.Surendra Kumar Saigal: That should be better.Gopala Kṛṣṇa: Now we should go straight to Vṛndāvana. Surendra Kumar Saigal: I think so. By that time the weather in Aligarh will be good. Not much of mosquitos. There are mosquitos. I hope after two, three weeks of sun it will be better.Prabhupāda: Where mosquitos?Surandra Kumar Saigal:
After rain there are mosquitos.Prabhupāda: [Transl. Mosquitos are here also. Some.]
Gopala Kṛṣṇa:
[Transl. What is your question?]
Indian lady:
[indistinct]
Gopala Kṛṣṇa:
[Transl. Just chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.]
Indian lady:
[indistinct]
Prabhupāda:
Hmm.
Pradyumna:
Bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ… Purport? Purport: “Samādhi means ‘fixed mind.’ The Vedic dictionary, the Nirukti, says, *samyag ādhīyate ’sminn ātmatattva-yāthātmyam: ‘*When the mind is fixed for understanding the self, it is called samādhi.’ Samādhi is never possible for persons interested in material sense enjoyment, nor for those who are bewildered by such temporary things. They are more or less condemned by the process of material energy.”
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. This is our ignorance that only for a little while we become entangled in material happiness. And in this way we continue our struggle. By studying the scriptures one acquires knowledge. Especially Śrīmad Bhāgavatam. Have you read it or not?]
Indian man (3):
[Transl. I am reading now.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. As far as possible we have tried to explain. Prahlāda Mahārāja said this. Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa indriyārtha-māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān [SB. 7.9.43] He told the Supreme Personality of Godhead that for me there is no unhappiness. I will sit down anywhere and chant your name and glories. That’s all. I am satisfied. But the reason for my unhappiness is that these foolish people work so hard for temporary material happiness, udvahato bharam, bharam means great arrangements. Māyā sukhāya bharam udvahato. Happiness is not permanent. Ten years, twenty years, at the most hundred years. It doesn’t last hundred years. Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa indriyārtha-māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato. Bharam means gorgeous arrangement. This is foolishness. *Vimūdhān. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. [Bg. 3.27] *I am worried about them. This is the consideration of a vaiṣṇava. Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa indriyārtha-māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān. Vimūdhān refers to those who do not know what is the real happiness. Just like a boy, he gives up the purpose of life to take education and accomplish many things, and plays around. Similarly, we are vimūdhā. What is the purpose of life? We have got the human form of life. What is wanted? Ignoring all these, we are busy how to eat nicely, how to sleep, how to enjoy life nicely. This is called māyā sukhāya. One cannot enjoy fully. There are so many problems in that.
Whatever minimum is needed to maintain the body and soul together, not everybody can afford opulent life style. That too is achived by the Lord’s mercy. Otherwise everybody would have become rich man. Possessed huge amount of money. A man works hard whole day and he gets two chapatis to eat. Food everyone gets. Even a dog gets it. And another man works a little and earns so much money. It is the Supreme Lord who supplies it. This is a fact. One who is favoured by the Supreme Lord he gets it. Everyone comes with his destiny. It is a wrong idea that by forcibly working hard I will get more money.
tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido
na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ
tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukhaṁ
[SB. 1.5.18]
Happiness you will obtain only as much as you deserve and are destined to. Similarly distress, nobody invites distress but it comes. He who is destined to suffer will suffer so much. Śāstra says that whatever happiness you are destined to receive you will receive. Do not endeavor for it. You will receive what you are destined to at the right time. Rather you endeavor how to understand the Supreme Lord. That is human life. tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām. We have gone through many, many births but we haven’t achived the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Travelled up and down. Sometimes in heaven, sometimes in hell. We have been everywhere. Now that we have got this human form of life try your best to attain Him. You will attain Him. And as far as your happiness and distress are concerned you will receive them as destined. No need to try for that.] Na tat-prayāsaḥ kartavyam, [SB. 7.6.4] Prahlāda Mahārāja? You have got that?
Pradyumna:
Na tat-prayāsaḥ kartavyam.
Prabhupāda:
What is that?
Harikeśa:
Some mahā-prasādam.
Prabhupāda:
For me?
Harikeśa:
They are offering it to you.
Prabhupāda:
Na tat-prayāsaḥ kartavyam. [aside:] He can go. You can go. She does not know.
Indian lady:
[Transl. So you are going to Vṛndāvana?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Hmm. Come again at the end of the month. At the end of September come again.] He…, her son—he is the father and mother—he’s an engineer, in Detroit, very good boy, getting very nice. He, living in the temple, husband-wife, child we have.* [Transl. Child is there. Only one child?] He’s getting very happy, very nice boy.* [Transl. Indians mostly join our movement from abroad. Not from here.] Just like their son, he’s educated very nicely. Educated boys are joining from foreign countries, and not from here.* [Transl. Tell me what’s the reason for that?]
Indian man:
[Transl. There is a saying in Hindi…]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Bengali & Hindi proverb. Geṅyo yogī bhik pāya nā. Gāoṅ kā yogī bhik nā mile. A prophet is not honoured in his own country.]
Indian man:
[Transl. [indistinct] Ravindranath Tagore’s genius was not recognised by us. Only when he got the noble prize was he accepted as the greatest poet and so on.]
Prabhupāda:
Here is Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, [Transl. he also joined from there.] he was sales manager in Coca-Cola. [Transl. He was earning 15,000] dollar yearly. [Transl. How much is 15,000 dollars in Indian rupees?]
Indian man:
[Transl. Approximately 1,50,000 rupees.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. That’s how much monthly?]
Indian man:
[Transl. 12,000 rupees.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Here who pays 12,000 rupees? You may get 1200 rupees. To earn 12,000 is not an ordinary thing. But he left everything and joined us. There is another boy also. He is from Ahmedabad. He was also an engineer. Yaśomatinandan.]
Indian lady:
[Transl. I met him in Bombay.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Gujarati.]
Indian lady:
[Transl. His parents are there.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Yes. Parents are there. So a few Indians who are educated, they joined from there. And when I bring foreign devotees here, just like this Bhāvananda svāmī, the government says that your visa is finished. You go back. To go back there and return costs 10,000 rupees. If we don’t get educated and hard-working persons then how can we run such a huge organization?]
Indian man:
[Transl. It’s a great achievement for your movement that younger generation has accepted it. That is vitality and long lasting. How much old people can accomplish? To distribute books, to perform kirtana…]
**Prabhupāda: You have got that book? Ah… Stillson Judah’s?
Pradyumna:
No. It’s in Bombay. We may have a copy in Vṛndāvana also.
Prabhupāda:
One professor, Stillson Judah, he has written one book. After studying our movement five years he has written one Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counterculture.
Surendra Kumar Saigal:
Counterculture.
Prabhupāda:
Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counterculture. [Transl. He put forth many scientific considerations. He gave his opinion that this movement is going to exist. It is not going to stop.]
Pradyumna:
Doesn’t have a copy here. It’s published by Princeton University Press. In their religion…, in their set of volumes on different religions.
Indian man:
[Transl. So I will be coming back on 15th evening.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Come.]
Indian lady:
[Transl. Here is little prasāda for you.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Hmm. Keep here. Give. Give prasāda. Please come, come.]
[new guest arrives]
Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [Transl. Very kind of you.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Give them prasāda.]
Indian man:
[Transl. We will take.]
Prabhupāda:
Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.
Mr. Patnaik [Defense Minister]: How are you, sir?
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Not good. My health is very bad. Now it is not active any more. Jaya. Your health?]
Mr. Patnaik:
[Transl. All right.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. How old are you?]
Mr. Patnaik:
[Transl. Less than you.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. I am 81 now.]
Mr. Patnaik:
[Transl. I am 78. Completed 78.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. 2, 3 years younger.]
Indian woman:
[Transl. Give me little…]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Little what?]
Indian woman:
[Transl. Dhool: Dust.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Plool: flower?]
Indian woman:
[Transl. No, dust from your feet.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Oh I see. You came here for some work?] You came here for some…
Mr. Patnaik:
Yes, then I thought I would go to your old place. Then they said this was here Lajpat nagar. Firoze Gandhi road. The old place, I didn’t get any response. There may be nobody there now. But when you shifted from there? There is nobody there now. Prabhupāda:
No.
Mr. Patnaik:
Then it would have been a… Prabhupāda:**
And this place is better than that.
Mr. Patnaik:
Very much. Oh, yes. How long you will stay?Prabhupāda:
I am going tomorrow, Vṛndāvana.
Mr. Patnaik:
Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana is all right now?Prabhupāda:
I’ll be three weeks there.
Mr. Patnaik:
Has the flood water cleared out? Otherwise it will not be a very good place to live. If flood water is still there all around Vṛndāvana then it might not be a nice place to live. You need sufficient facility. Prabhupāda:
Still, it is Vṛndāvana. Still, it is Vṛndāvana.
Mr. Patnaik:
Of course.
Prabhupāda:
*Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam.[Transl. Just as the Supreme Personality of Godhead is worshipable, Brajendranandana Hari,] As He is worshipable, similarly, Vṛndāvana dhāma is also worshipable. Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam ramyā kācid upāsanā vraja-vadhū-vargeṇā va kalpitā [Caitanya-mañjusā]. Upāsanā, vraja-vadhū, the vraja, damsels of vrajabhūmi, the gopīs, as they worship the Lord, there is no comparison to that process of worship. Vraja-vadhū-vargeṇā. Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvana.
Mr. Patnaik:
I think we are going there after Parliament session closes tomorrow. [Transl. Then I will have no work here.]
Prabhupāda:
Where? Vṛndāvana.
Mr. Patnaik:
Vṛndāvana. [indistinct] Then I was told that Mathurā and [indistinct]. Full.
Prabhupāda:
They spend so much money for the roadways; still it is not good.
Mr. Patnaik:
Draining the different levels, question arises, the water, the excessive in quantity, and the natural drains are not efficient enough to take it out. [indistinct] I was told that…
Prabhupāda:
There is no sufficient outlet.
Mr. Patnaik:
Yes. But some of those āśrama, Mathurā, may be Vṛndāvana also, that four feet water in the āśramas. Three, four feet water.
Prabhupāda:
Within the āśramas?
Mr. Patnaik:
And temple. You haven’t received any message from Vṛndāvana?
Pradyumna:
Our temple is all right. Raman Reti is not flooded where we are. It’s almost up to Fogel Ashram in the back, Yamunā, but it has not come to our Raman Reti.
Mr. Patnaik:
And now you will remain here in India for some time?
Prabhupāda:
That I do not know. I, actually, now it is little troublesome for me to travel all the year.
Mr. Patnaik:
You are just gone to foreign country again. So when will rest arrive…
Prabhupāda:
Rest, if I rest then there may be… Because I am dealing with all neophytes. If I don’t keep them alive by personal presence… Still, they are doing nice. I have appointed twenty secretaries all over the world. I am training them. They are managing. Managing nicely. I have been in New York and Los Angeles and Hawaii, all big, big centers. London, Paris.
Mr. Patnaik:
Oh, it’s a very great. Your program for Kurukṣetra and etcetera and the…
Prabhupāda:
Program was that they promised to give me a land.
Mr. Patnaik:
Who?
Prabhupāda:
That Chief Minister.
Mr. Patnaik:
Have they done so?
Prabhupāda:
Not yet.
Mr. Patnaik:
I heard about two acres was available recently, except that it could have been more. But our friend, the gentleman in Chandīgarh didn’t like it. I wrote to you that the manner in which approach was made it upset those people. And then the Minister, I later learned that, that [indistinct] the Minister for pancayet he called that, that Sarpanch and Sarpanch said “no we are not going to do” to the minister. [indistinct] and they acquire. It can’t be very, very costly, you know. It depends upon two or three acre of land from him.
Prabhupāda:
Hm.
Mr. Patnaik:
And the pancayet man may not, maybe has no control over [indistinct]…
Prabhupāda:
We are trying for another big scheme in Bengal. We have applied to the government to acquire land, 350 acres, a big planetarium. Planetarium. We have described the planetarium in our Fifth Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In that planetarium it is said that the moon is above the sun planet, by one million six hundred thousand miles.
Mr. Patnaik:
What does astronomy say? The modern astronomy.
Prabhupāda:
They say the moon planet is nearer to earth planet, and they have gone there.
Mr. Patnaik:
Have you given up any idea about Kurukṣetra?
Prabhupāda:
No, no, not…
Mr. Patnaik:
No, because if you have the idea, the land is the least part of it, because so much is to be done. One can’t simply sit on that if the idea is that something should be done. And I learned that gentleman, Mr. Goyal and he has said that he will do something. I was not there at the time of the sūrya-grahaṇa.
Prabhupāda:
Oh.
Mr. Patnaik:
My close very dear relative of mine was very serious. So I couldn’t leave that place and go there. [indistinct]. And there was very big, huge crowds [indistinct] And there was not the least little difficulty [indistinct] because of that new thing that had been happening at Brahma sarovara, all around it wherever there is space for bathing, [indistinct] very comfortable.
Prabhupāda:
[aside] You bring one little plate prasādam from there, from that…
Mr. Patnaik:
And you will be in Vṛndāvana for some…
Prabhupāda:
Three weeks.
Mr. Patnaik:
After that you don’t know. After that where you go, you don’t know.
Prabhupāda:
Yes.
Mr. Patnaik:
Well, this is God’s work, Lord Kṛṣṇa’s work. I am trying [indistinct] to cooperate with you, because nobody can do.
Prabhupāda:
No, you have done tremendous work.
Mr. Patnaik:
No, but which is very little considering the situation, the condition, problem in the country. I am at a lower level than your level. To bring together millions of people who will stand up for that. Of course, money comes from there.
Prabhupāda:
The one encouraging thing in this movement is that our books are being very much appreciated. In all universities, foreign and Indian, libraries, professors, learned scholars.
Mr. Patnaik:
Yes, they’ll branch out and then… It’s a great service.
Prabhupāda:
We are selling books to the extent of sixty thousand dollars daily.
Mr. Patnaik:
I see.
Prabhupāda:
That is our only hope, that we shall not be financially in difficulty. People are taking our books very nicely. People are accepting our literature.
Mr. Patnaik:
It is not that financial difficulties were not there also [indistinct]. I don’t have the support, but I feel [indistinct] find that several places the demand for this, for the acceptance also members are coming forward, but not in the manner in which I had wanted. Many people, lakhs of people stand against the forces which want to help religion and moral side. There should be a linking up of all those who want religion to remain and morality to also be there. Those forces have to be met by also organized force from the right kind of people, religious people. [indistinct] I hope they are not coming in your way.
Prabhupāda:
No, no.
Mr. Patnaik:
I remember that you had written yourself that there is something we could do together. Possibly this question, building and all that, whenever it comes there. It is good to have that building and that land, but even before that, there is work to be done at the Kurukṣetra.
Prabhupāda:
My point is that Kurukṣetra is the place where Bhagavad-gītā was spoken. So if we take the words of Bhagavad-gītā as it is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, then people will be benefitted.
Mr. Patnaik:
That is basic, of course. The foundation.
Prabhupāda:
But if we do not take the words of Bhagavad-gītā, then moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ [Bg. 9.12]. That I believe.
[aside:] Find out this verse. Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo.
Mr. Patnaik:
That’s true. I also believe that there must be a direct…
Prabhupāda:
No, why not direct?
Mr. Patnaik:
Putting in your interpretation, that is wrong. It should be direct. That doesn’t mean only those people who have accepted this can come together.
Prabhupāda:
And why the others will not accept?
Mr. Patnaik:
No, we have made, you must have seen our literature, Gītā as a text, but still people may not judge…
Prabhupāda:
No, no, we should not depend on the people’s acceptance only. We have to present Gītā as it is. Now everything is not accepted by everyone. Even if you make change, there is no guarantee that they will…
Mr. Patnaik:
No, no.
Prabhupāda:
No, no, I am not speaking to you. Anyone.
Mr. Patnaik:
I am not trying to make a show. I believe a direct interpretation is important thing more than the other kinds of ideas and conceptions.
Pradyumna:
moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo
mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ
rākṣasīm āsurīṁ caiva
prakṛtiṁ mohinīṁ śrītāḥ
[Bg. 9.12]
“Those who are thus bewildered are attracted by demoniac and atheistic views. In that deluded condition, their hopes for liberation, their fruitive activities and their culture of knowledge are all defeated.”
Prabhupāda:
Go on. Go on. I have given any purport?
Pradyumna:
Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. “There are many devotees who assume themselves to be in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and devotional service but at heart do not accept the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, as the Absolute Truth. For them, the fruit of devotional service—going back to Godhead—will never be tasted. Similarly, those who are engaged in fruitive, pious activities and who are ultimately hoping to be liberated from this material entanglement will never be successful either, because they deride the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. In other words, persons who mock Kṛṣṇa are to be understood to be demoniac or atheistic. As described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, such demoniac miscreants never surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore their mental speculations to arrive at the Absolute Truth bring them to the false conclusion that the ordinary living entity and Kṛṣṇa are one and the same. With such a false conviction, they think that the body of any human being is now simply covered by material nature and that as soon as one is liberated from this material body there is no difference between God and himself. This attempt to become one with Kṛṣṇa will be baffled because of delusion. Such atheistic and demoniac cultivation of spiritual knowledge is always futile. That is the indication of this verse. For such persons, cultivation of the knowledge in the Vedic literature, like the Vedānta-sūtra and the Upaniṣads, is always baffled.
“It is a great offense, therefore, to consider Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, to be an ordinary man. Those who do so are certainly deluded, because they cannot understand the eternal form of Kṛṣṇa. In the Bṛhad-vaiṣṇava mantra it is clearly stated that one who considers the body of Kṛṣṇa to be material should be driven out from all rituals and activities of the śruti. And if one by chance sees his face, he should at once take bath in the Ganges to rid himself of infection. People jeer at Kṛṣṇa because they are envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Their destiny is certainly to take birth after birth in the species of atheistic and demoniac life. Perpetually, their real knowledge will remain under delusion, and gradually they will regress to the darkest region of creation.”
Mr. Patnaik:
I am glad that I just heard it. I was reading this yesterday, the Eleventh Chapter.
Prabhupāda:
Eleventh Chapter?
Mr. Patnaik:
Eleventh Chapter, yes. There are twelve, twelve chapters. There, Kṛṣṇa Bhagavān has a dialog with Uddhava.
Prabhupāda:
Hmm?
Pradyumna:
He’s referring to Ekādaśa-skandh: eleventh canto of the Bhāgavatam.
Prabhupāda:
Uddhava.
Mr. Patnaik:
And there I felt…, I thought that maybe whenever we meet I’ll bring up this question with you. ’Cause the way in which it has been translated in Hindi which I read it does create a little question as to what Bhagavān Himself said about the status of the soul, the individual soul, and relationship, our relationship with God. Of course I have not read your Bhāgavata. Because although I think I should have got it, they don’t give it to the Life Members. You have the whole?
Pradyumna:
Yes, Bhāgavatam, we’re up to the Seventh Canto now in the printing.
Mr. Patnaik:
So this canto has come.
Pradyumna:
Yes, the canto has come out. So Saptama-skandha, paryanta [up to]. We’re up to that.
Mr. Patnaik:
Now, well then if it is, if the member is eligible for this then I will have these whatever is ready. Now in the Eleventh there is this dialog.
Prabhupāda:
Eleventh Canto, yes. Can you remember the verse?
Mr. Patnaik:
No, no, number of the verse, again and again I had gone through that, and as to that, ultimately there is no difference. As soon as this happens then they become, it becomes… I would like this because I belong to the sect of our country, middle sect, from Swami Narayana. He’s based on Rāmānujācārya philosophy, which says that all the souls are there, they are the body of the creator Bhagavān, just as the human ātmā has this body. This means there is the difference also identity. Identity is one, and yet they have their own place. That have been the faith which I have been nurtured. Now in many places this sometimes this differentiation remains, sometimes there is things said which wipe it out. I thought you would be the best person to give me some guidance. I would like to have.
Prabhupāda:
As you say that Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad-gītā, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. We living entities, we are part and parcel of God.
Mr. Patnaik:
Aṁśa.
Prabhupāda:
Aṁśa. So any common man can understand what is the… [break] [end]