Morning Walk
has joined us, About fifty friends, Indian, they have left him.
Satsvarūpa:
Of course, evolutionary theory is that in the beginning, all the different species weren’t there. Only simple forms, and then they…, more complex ones came about.
Prabhupāda:
Wherefrom they came? Dropped from the sky?
Satsvarūpa:
Some theories.
Prabhupāda:
[japa] [break] …has joined us, About fifty friends, Indian, they have left him. [break]
Satsvarūpa:
I plan to go to Detroit tomorrow. After you leave.
Prabhupāda:
Oh. Tomorrow. We are leaving also tomorrow?
Satsvarūpa:
Yes. [break]
Prabhupāda:
…of the garden, they are not clean. They should be clean. Just like in front of our, this temple, the footpath is very clean.
Satsvarūpa:
There’s stones in the garden, washed.
Prabhupāda:
Yes. Grass, water it. You should cleanse. Tan mandira-mārjanādau. [Śrī Gurvaṣṭaka 3] That is also bhajana. [break]
Viśvakarmā:
Do you think you’ll be able to see the temple either today or tomorrow and give me some ideas on how to utilize the building?
Prabhupāda:
Yes. Yes.
Viśvakarmā:
I can arrange it with Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa, when you’re available?
Prabhupāda:
Yes. After ten.
[japa] [break] …lights are working in order, unless there is some supervision above this lighting system. If somebody says, “This is going on automatically,” is that very sane? Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. Light is matter, combination of glass and iron, and it is going on with order, without any upper supervision? How these rascals say like that? Because immediately they do not see who is pulling on the wire, “There is no.., nobody there.” How poor knowledge they have. And they are passing on as scientist. Why you are stopping car if there is no supervision? You can pass on; nobody will see. Why one is afraid of not transgressing?
Satsvarūpa:
They know the authority is there.
Prabhupāda:
Rascal, how you think there is no authority? There is no sinful life, there is no…, everything is all right? Go on. Go to hell.
Jagadīśa:
I remember, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when I was young I was brought up in the Catholic church, and I learned to fear God and be afraid of God. But then, as I went to high school, due to…
Prabhupāda:
…association, everything is bad. So degraded condition, there is no good association. Therefore I say that we require a first-class man. Section of first-class… All third class, fourth class. Even the so-called priests, they are also fourth-class, fifth-class men. Indulging in homosex.
Satsvarūpa:
This priest who joined us, who’s now your man, he said that although he was a priest, he smoked three packs of cigarettes a day…
Prabhupāda:
Just see.
Satsvarūpa:
…and drank all kind of wine. He began to drink wine, he said, because in their mass, in their ceremony, the priest drinks wine. And then then he became addicted.
Prabhupāda:
These rascals are priests. And they’ll protect religion.
Hari-śauri:
We used to have a Reverend who was in charge of our local church when I was a child. And when we used to go on outings—sometimes they used to organize outings for children to the seaside and everything—and they would stop at a public house and they would give refreshments. So all the children would get lemonade, like that, and the grown-ups would go and drink some beer or something. So the…
Prabhupāda:
Their father, mother drinking, and the child is given some soft drinking. And learning how to drink when he’ll grow up.
Hari-śauri:
This vicar, he used to sit, and he used to sip small glass of clear liquid. So everyone thought he was drinking water, but then once they checked, and it was pure vodka.
Prabhupāda:
Why speaking lie, that “I was drinking water.”
[japa] [break] [converses in Hindi with guests]
Indian man (1):
Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. There are more?]
Indian man (1):
[Transl. Yes, there are many more Indians, but all of them don’t come to the temple. Prabhupāda, there were quite a few yesterday. I don’t know why don’t they all come?]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. Prabhupādajī, I had a suggestion that if a messege of the temple programs and functions are broadcast to them through radio or television, because until they know that you are here, they have no means to know of their own. Last time also I had this same suggestion that somehow or other if they are informed about your program through TV or radio especially about Indian programs then at least people will come to know. It is not that they don’t want to come.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Don’t they know that we have got a temple here? Do we have to advertise?]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. No, not all of them know about it.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Really? Are there still such foolish people?]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. So many of them. But they believe in the Supreme Lord.]
Indian man (1):
[Transl. They accept God. But after coming here they have become in the materialistic way of life, making money, making dollars.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. No, money is required.]
Indian man (1):
[Transl. They have got small temples in their houses. They have Kṛṣṇa Deity.]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. The main thing is propaganda. If more propaganda is done…]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. So do it all of you together. Make huge propaganda so that people come to the temple.]
Indian man (1):
Prabhupāda, I’m trying to get one radio station, you know, so far the…, so that we make a Hare Kṛṣṇa program. So the radio is the big media for…
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. There is no use of radio. They have to come to the temple. Radio-fadio is useless.]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. Prabhupāda, it says that the Supreme Lord created the material world through His glance and everything came into existence. So all the animals came into being instantly?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Hmm. The creation did not take place in one day. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate. [Bg. 8.19] It is created in order to give a chance to the foolish people. The conditioned souls are manifested, remain for some time, grow, produce some by products, dwindle, and die. These are the bodily transformations. Similarly the material nature is also like that. Just like this body is born some day, then it grows, it remains for some time, it produces some children, it dwindles and finally dies. This is the law of nature. When the material nature is annihilated then all living entities remain in an unconscious state And again when it is created, all the living entities reappear in their respective previous positions. Again he is given a chance to choose his path. But the foolish people don’t understand it and on top of that ass-like foolish gurus further misguide him. This is going on.]
Indian man (1):
[Transl. Prabhupāda, As I was coming here I saw so many plants are being trampled under the feet, many living entities are killed while breathing and walking, so how does Kṛṣṇa keep account for all these things?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Kṛṣṇa isn’t like you! Why do you treat Kṛṣṇa like you? This is ass-like mentality. “May be Kṛṣṇa is little bigger than me.” Kūpa-maṇḍūka, that is Dr. Frog. The frog lives in the well. If you tell him about Atlantic ocean, he will think my well is three feet, may be Atlantic is four feet or utmost five feet. This is…How will the rascal understand? This is the mistake. The fool thinks that, Kṛṣṇa is just like me. Or may be little bigger. Or little bigger. How far the rascal can estimate?]
Indian man (1):
[Transl. Prabhupāda, they do understand that God is almighty and all powerful but māyā is such that by her illusory potency she makes them forget.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Māyā* is meant for the fools. Māyām etāṁ taranti te. Those who take shelter of the Lord’s lotus feet, māyā cannot harm them. Why do you remain in māyā?]
Indian man:
Prabhupāda, I’d like to ask one question. See, I am initiated by one guru in India, and he’s also the in this sect of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. We also chant nitāi-gaura hari-bol, hari-bol. So nitāi-gaura chant, sect. So…
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. In the Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s sampradāya there are many hypocrites. They are called Āula, bāula, kartābhajā, neḍā, daraveśa, sāni, sahajiyā, sakhībhekī, smārta, jāta-gosāñi, and so on. There are are thirteen unauthorised sampradāyas. All of them are hypocrites.]
Indian man:
[Transl. But you see my guru has two places. One is in Vṛndāvana and the other one is on the bank of river Narmada in Gujarat called Malsara.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. I have been to that place.]
Indian man:
[Transl. Rāsa Bihāri Svāmī Mahārāja. He knows you. He used to tell me about you. So what is your opinion about him?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. He had a woman with him.]
Indian man:
[Transl. Pardon?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. He had a woman. Sevā-dāsī.]
Indian man:
[Transl. Rāsa Bihāri Svāmī Mahārāja?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Yes. Wasn’t there a woman with him or not?]
Indian man:
[Transl. I mean…. I was a new bhakta, Prabhupāda, so I didn’t know about it.]
[everyone laughs]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Anyway, he is not a pure Vaiṣṇava.]
Indian man:
[Transl. Pardon me?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Not a pure Vaiṣṇava.]
Indian man (1):
[Transl. He gave you hint. Now you understand.]
Indian man (2):
Prabhupāda? Are Viṣṇu-loka and Kṛṣṇa-loka the same?
Prabhupāda:
They are spiritual world.
Indian man (2):
[Transl. Is there any difference between ‘hari oṁ,’ and ‘hari bol’?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. No difference.]
Indian man (3):
[Transl. Prabhupāda, now there is a big issue in the world-atomic war, what is your opinion about that? When will it start?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. When the Supreme Lord will desire it will happen. And all the Godless people would be finished. Thus He would show that there is God. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham [Bg. 10.34] The death is God. He will show to those who do not accept God that there is God. So long he was alive he could not understand now die and realize the existence of God. When death comes even your father cannot protect you.]
Indian man (3):
[Transl. Now they build big, big buildings here and other places but when Indians try to preach about Hare Kṛṣṇa they make fun of them and think kīrtan is a big joke.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Joke or what they will know when bombs will drop on them. At that time they will understand the real fun.]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. Fun…But once they know about it they do realize that it is genuine.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. No, it is not their fault. Many hypocrites have spoiled them. That’s why they think we are also like that.]
Indian man (3):
[Transl. Many so called gurus come here. Recently one person came and he is teaching “Sex yoga.” Sex yoga.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Oh, that Rajneesh.]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. It was published in the newspaper?]
Indian man (3):
[Transl. Yes, It came in the paper.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. That Rajneesh.]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. Most of them talk about Gītā.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. That’s why the other day I called them ill names that they come here and ruin others.]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. Actually they caused a lot of harm to people.]
Devotee priest [Bhakta Gene]:
I’m told that…
Prabhupāda:
Oh, [laughs] how are you?
Bhakta Gene:
Very fine, very fine. I’m told that you met with Thomas Merton some years ago. Is this correct?
Prabhupāda:
The French?
Bhakta Gene:
No, the Cistercian monk from Kentucky.
Prabhupāda:
I do not know.
Bhakta Gene:
You didn’t meet with him? He was supposedly the most prominent mystical writer within the Catholic Church in the past one hundred years. His writings gained tremendous prominence in the past…, oh, the past twenty-five years.
Prabhupāda:
Prominence amongst whom?
Bhakta Gene:
Uh, amongst Christians. And non-Christians as well. He made a trip to the East. He had an accident in the East and was electrocuted. Oh, this is some ten years ago now.
Jayādvaita:
He wrote that original Introduction for your first Bhagavad-gītā published by Macmillan.
Prabhupāda:
Oh.
Bhakta Gene:
Well, this raises a question in my mind, Your Grace. Within Christianity there has been a history of mysticism from 100 A.D. to the present. Now there have been some prominent mystics, a few prominent mystics, and a great many not so prominent. Now how do you classify these men, these Christian mystics, Protestant as well as Catholic?
Prabhupāda:
It is some yogic mysticism. It has nothing to do with spiritual life. They want to see some miracles, generally, ordinary public. So this mystic power, show some miracles and make them astonished. That’s all. It has nothing to do with spiritual life.
Bhakta Gene:
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I was referring to truly devotional mystics, such as St. John of the Cross, St. Francis of Assisi.
Prabhupāda:
If there is devotional service, where is the need of mysticism? There is no need. God is my master; I am His servant. Where there is necessity of this nonsense mysticism?
Bhakta Gene:
Well, I think that the term “mysticism,” so many people have been playing with, particularly here in the United States.
Prabhupāda:
So many people… We have nothing to do with so many people. If you are actually servant of God, so God is there, you are servant. So your transaction is there, just to carry out the orders of God, that’s all. Why do you want mysticism? Just to show some jugglery to the people? You serve God. That’s all. And it is very simple thing, what God orders. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Where is the question of mysticism? There is no question of mysticism. God says, “Just always think of Me. Offer your obeisances and worship Me.” That’s all. Where is the need of mysticism? It is all jugglery.
Indian man:
I tell you, I think there’s a wrong conception.
Prabhupāda:
You think in your way. There is no meaning in your thinking unless you come to the line.
Indian man:
No, sir. There’s a wrong conception, that mysticism. They say it comes with the spiritual advancement. I think that’s what he’s getting at.
Prabhupāda:
The problem is that we are suffering in this material world life after life, and our aim is how to again go back to home, back to Godhead. That they do not know. They are showing some mysticism. What that myst… Stop death? Then I shall see your mysticism. What is this nonsense mysticism? Can you stop death? Is it possible? Then what is the meaning of this mysticism? All bogus. My problem is that I am accepting one body and suffering, because as soon as I get this material body, I have to suffer. Then I am creating another body. I die. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. And again begins another chapter. In this way, from this grass life to the demigods, I am simply changing body and dying and taking birth. This is my problem. So what mysticism will do? But that they do not know, that what is the problem. That is clearly stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9].
This is your problem. You are repeatedly taking birth and dying, and so long you are living there are so many troubles. Jarā-vyādhi. Especially old age and disease. So this is the problem. What mysticism will help you? Will the mysticism stop your birth, death, old age and disease? Then that is mysticism. Otherwise, what is the use of such nonsense things? [break] …misleading from the real path. They do not know what is the aim of life, what is the problem of life. They create some mysticism, and some rascal people are after them. That’s all. “Here is mystic.” That’s all.
Indian man:
How important is the association with the devotees?
Prabhupāda:
Yes. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ [SB. 3.25.25]. Therefore sādhu-saṅga wanted, association of devotees. That is wanted. Then our life will be successful. Not mysticism.
Satsvarūpa:
Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think Bhakta Gene wants to know if you recognize that there are any great devotees in that Christian tradition. Do we recognize that any of those Christian saints were great devotees? Did they develop love of God? Or what’s the comparison?
Prabhupāda:
I do not know. I have not studied Christianity. But if anyone has developed love of…, that is perfection. So there is no question of my knowing or not knowing. If actually one has developed love for God, he’s perfect. That’s all.
Bhakta Gene:
This is what prompted me to ask my first question, Your Grace. What has brought me here has been my search…
Prabhupāda:
No, it is God’s desire that you are sincere, you have come. Now utilize the association and the opportunity, your life will be successful. We have got enough books to convince you about this science. So you read it.
Bhakta Gene:
I am convinced. [laughter]
Prabhupāda:
Yes. Why one should be after mysticism? What is the benefit?
Bhakta Gene:
It was the mystics that brought me here. This was the thing. It was their love of God…
Prabhupāda:
Where is mystic? We don’t show any mystic.
Bhakta Gene:
No. The term…, we’re having trouble with the term. The term “mystic” was applied to transcendentalists within the church to show a difference between them and the traditionalists. The traditionalists were those who paid attention to the script.
Prabhupāda:
What do you mean by traditionalist?
Bhakta Gene:
The traditionalists are strictly the old Roman Catholic traditionalists.
Prabhupāda:
No, apart from Roman or…, what do you mean by traditionalist?
Bhakta Gene:
Those who abided by tradition rather than the scriptures.
Prabhupāda:
Oh, scripture, they have no respect for scripture?
Bhakta Gene:
Well, they had respect for scriptures, but they had more respect for tradition, ritualistic laws.
Prabhupāda:
What is the tradition?
Satsvarūpa:
The way the church would apply the ritual rather than actually trying to…
Prabhupāda:
But that is required. That is required. Just like we are worshiping the Deity. This is traditional, from time immemorial. So how you can reject? This is the way. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam [SB. 7.5.23]. That is bhakti way.
Bhakta Gene:
But so much of the tradition within the Roman Church has no reference to any scripture.
Prabhupāda:
No, no, that has not been properly done. Otherwise, just like here, we have got temple, regulative principle. If it is done properly, the result will be there. If it is improperly done, then there is no result. How these boys, European, American, they never knew what is Kṛṣṇa… But on account of this following the traditionalism, they are becoming devotees. It is practical, you can see. Simply theoretical knowledge will not do. Must be practiced. That is traditional. Tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt [Upadeśāmṛta *3].
That is the Nectar of Instruction. Tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt. This is traditional. One has to follow the traditional rules and regulations. Utsāhān dhairyāt niścayād tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt [Upadeśāmṛta 3]. First of all one must be enthusiastic: “I shall become devotee.” Then, utsāhān dhairyāt, with patience. Then niścayāt, with conviction: “Yes, I am following the rules and it will be successful.” And tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt: you have to follow the traditional rules and regulations. Sato vṛtteḥ, you must be honest. *Sādhu-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83]: and these things in the association of devotees. Ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati. Then your bhakti, devotional life, will be successful.
Satsvarūpa:
Some of these Christian mystics would say it’s more important to directly contact God within your own heart; these traditions are not as important.
Prabhupāda:
God is there already. Where is the contact? God is there already. It is no question of contacting. He is already, but you are blind, you cannot see. Therefore if you follow the rules and regulations, then you’ll see. You’ll see. Otherwise, we’ll not see. God is there. God is everywhere. God is here. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham [Bs. 5.35]. You have no eyes to see.
Bhakta Gene:
These are almost the very words that Francis of Assisi stated.
Prabhupāda:
Yes. His question was raised in Melbourne. And that is perfectional. He was embracing tree. So I told, “This is perfection.” Perfection means he’ll see everywhere God and everything in God. That is perfection.
Hari-śauri:
I think we should go back now, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda:
Yes. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam. Mayā. You just explain this verse.
mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ
jagad avyakta-mūrtinā
mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni
na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ
[Bg. 9.4]
You understand this?
Jayādvaita:
Yes. Kṛṣṇa says that “Everything is resting in Me. I am present all over the universe, impersonally. I can’t be seen. Everything is resting on Me. At the same time, I’m outside of everything. I’m independent.” He maintains His personality.
Prabhupāda:
Na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ. “I’m not there.” So this is conception of God. Nothing can exist without God. But that does not mean everything is God. We have to understand this philosophy.
Indian man:
I just want to ask…, Bhaktisiddhānta Prabhu, Bhaktisiddhānta, your spiritual master. How you spent the days, your young age, with Bhaktisiddhānta?
Prabhupāda:
Huh?
Indian man:
Yes. Bhaktisiddhānta, your spiritual master. Guru.
Prabhupāda:
Young age? I was not with him. I was householder. But I used to meet with him. I was following his instructions.
Devotee:
Jaya.
Prabhupāda:
[break] …valley? Don Valley? No.
Viśvakarmā:
That’s another section, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda:
That verse, can anyone remember? Yatra yogeśvaraḥ hariḥ? Huh?
Indian man:
yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇo
yatra pārtho dhanur-dharaḥ
tatra śrīr vijayo bhūtir
dhruvā nītir matir mama
[Bg. 18.78]
Prabhupāda:
Yes. So what is the explanation?
Indian man:
Where Lord Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna are there, there the victory.
Prabhupāda:
Ah. Then all mystic power is there. That means where there is Kṛṣṇa and His pure devotee, the whole mystic power is there. Tatra śrīḥ? What is that?
Jayādvaita:
Vijayo bhūtir.
Prabhupāda:
Ah. Tatra śrīr vijayo bhūtiḥ. Devotee, he hasn’t got to try separately for all these things. It will come automatically. That is mysticism. [laughter]
Indian man:
[Transl. Will you come again next year?]
Prabhupāda:
Ah?
Indian man:
[Transl. Next year you will come again?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. If the Supreme Lord desires.]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. Is it possible for one Svāmī who came here a few times to have your darśana alone?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Why alone?]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. I mean upstairs in the temple in your room for a few minutes?]
Indian man:
[Transl. To clear some doubts and questions.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. We can do it publicly. Don’t we take questions from the audience and answer them?]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. He doesn’t have courage to ask in front of others.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. About the Supreme Lord…]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. Suppose if anyone has any personal…]
Prabhupāda:
There is nothing personal. [Transl. To discuss about the Supreme Personality of Godhead is actually personal. The Supreme Lord is the master and I am His servant. That’s all. What else is there?]
Indian man:
[Transl. Śrīla Prabhupāda, what do you think about acquiring a farm for a temple in Toronto?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. We need people to work. What will you do with a farm, lick? Who will work?]
Indian man:
[Transl. There are some devotees who don’t want to come and live here, they can develop it there.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. We want like that, but only if the devotees are prepared. Live a village life independently. We have done that in a few places like New Vṛndāvan where we will be going next.] Four hundred acres of land. More than that.
Hari-śauri:
Thousand.
Prabhupāda:
Thousand acres. Yes.
Indian man:
[Transl. We have thought to acquire hundred or two hundred acres of land.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. That’s a wonderful idea. But people want to live in the cities and eat meat, drink wine and indulge in prostitution.]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. Prabhupāda, is it possible that some ten or twelve Indian devotees together take a farm and live there?]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. That’s very good. But you all should be ready for it.]
Indian man (2):
[Transl. I have noticed that some devotees who have come from villages they don’t want to live in the city. They want to live in the farm.]
Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Yes. Living outside of the city is comfortable. What is there in the city? Still they want to live in the cities. This is the attraction of the modern civilisation.]
[break] [end]