Conversation in Hindi [Some English] During Lunch

Devotee:
[annoucing] [Transl. First of all I offer my humble obeisances to my guru.]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:
Outside the St. Francis in Vṛndāvana, during lunchtime.

Indian man:
[Transl. We don’t want to quarrel with anybody in Vṛndāvana dhāma. To worship the Supreme Lord devotess come here and spoil things. But from our childhood we are attached to our own gurujī. So it is not possible to…] [indistinct]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. That’s not a fact. tasmāt śāstraṁ pramāṇaṁ te [Bg. 16.24]]

Indian man:
[Transl. It will create quarrel between each other.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. What quarrel?]

Indian man:
[Transl. That I cannot tell you.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. The scriptural evidence is there.]

Indian man:
[Transl. It is not a question of scriptural evidence. This disciple of yours went to Karapātrījī. Ask him what śloka he quoted.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. What did you say?]

Yasomatinandana:
[Transl. I just told him that Nāradajī instructs Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja that if the qualities of a particular varṇa are foung in a person belonging to another varṇa then he is to accepted as belonging to that particular varṇa. If śūdra-qualities are found in a brāhmaṇa then he is a śūdra, not a Brāhmaṇa. This you had spoken to me. It is the 35th verse of the seventh canto of Śrīmad Bhāgavatam. He said that there are three types of lions. The first type of lion is the real lion. The second type of lion is a lion-like man. And the third type of lion is a drawing of a lion. Similarly, the word is the same but there is difference. So the statement has…]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. No. Only he understood the difference and none else? Why didn’t you say that only you know the difference? Others like Śrīdhara Svāmī, Vīrarāghava ācārya, Viśvanātha Cakravartī, none else could understand the difference, only you?]

Yasomatinandana:
[Transl. His two or three disciples were there and they did not allow me to speak saying “He is too big a personality and we are too tiny. Don’t talk more.”]

Indian man:
[Transl. In India there are always differences of opinion. It is nothing new.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Why difference? Whatever scriptural evidence is there….]

Indian man:
[Transl. Even in our society there are differences of opinion between sannyāsis. In Mahāprabhu sampradāya, in Rāmānuja sampradāya, everywhere there is conflict of opinions.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Mutual disagreement might be but why scriptural disagreement?]

Indian man:
[Transl. They even say that what we speak is śāstra. Recently in Haridvāra some ācārya, head from Madhva sampradāya came and said that he would give discourse on śāstra on the condition that the audience should pay him five thousand rupees. These things go on. Yad yad vibhūtimat sattvam [Bg. 10.41] Wherever there is vibhūti there is the presence of God. So all of you are oppulent, my obeisances to you all. [sarcastically]

Yasomatinandana:
[Transl. I told him that may be there is 1 fault, but you ignore 999 qualities. You pick the fault and reject them. It’s possible that their behaviour is different than that of yours, but you can clearly see how this movement is being spread all over the world.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. What we are preaching is not our own statements. Big, big ācāryas like Śrīdhara Svāmī, Vīrarāghava ācārya, Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, Jīva Gosvāmī, big, big ācāryas have written these things in their literatures. They didn’t say that there are three kinds of lions. One lion is my gurūjī and another lion is your gurūjī. They didn’t say that.Our point is that somehow things are going on no matter how many lions are out there. We don’t care. And things will go on. This is the very reason for India’s present pathetic condition. Artificially making some issue out of nothing. Vaiṣṇnave jāti buddhi, is according to śāstra, hellish. Arcye, arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr. [Padma Purāṇa] Just like people from all over the world come here to have darśana of the Supreme Lord’s Deity form. And if someone comes and says “This is stone only. People are so foolish that they come to take darśana.” They say like that. Followers of Ārya samāja say like that.]

Indian man:
[Transl. We believe that as soon as prāṇa-pratiṣṭhā: invoking life in the Deity is done the Supreme Lord is directly present.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. If by prāṇa-pratiṣṭhā the stone can become God then can’t śūdras become brāhmaṇas by prāṇa-pratiṣṭha? Prāṇa-pratiṣṭha is performed on the stone and for a living person vaiṣṇava-pratiṣṭha is not possible. Just see what kind of arguement? Are these valid arguments? In stone prāṇa-pratiṣṭha is possible, but in a living person prāṇa-pratiṣṭha is not possible. As if he is worse than the stone. Is that a reasonable consideration?] If you can give life to a stone then you cannot give Kṛṣṇa-bhakti to a living being?

Indian man:
[Transl. No one can check Kṛṣṇa-bhakti.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Then what remains?]

Indian man:
[Transl. Bhakti* is a far superior thing.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Your argument is like “One becomes a Kṛṣṇa bhakta and at the same time remains a śūdra.”]

Indian man:
[Transl. They say…]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. No, they don’t say, you say.]

Indian man:
[Transl. In the book Bhaktamāla it is stated that Rohidāsa was a great devotee, but was a cobbler.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Forget Rohidāsa, we have our Haridāsa Ṭhākura. He was a Mohammdan.]

Indian man:
[Transl. Yavana Haridāsa. He was also delivered.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Yes. Advaita Ācārya, the then president of the brāhmaṇa community of Śāntipur, selected him to be the first recipient of the śrāddha offering ceremony. So Haridāsa Ṭhākura humbly replied “Advaita prabhu, you are respecting me and placing me in a highly exalted position. That you are offering me the śrāddha-pātra: the first plate of praśāda from the śrāddha ceremony [Cc. Ādi 10.44], for this you will be in great trouble in the society.” So He challanged that “let any brāhmaṇa come forward and argue with Me. I know that by feeding you I would be receiving the benefit of feeding one thousand brāhmaṇas.” Was Haridāsa a Mohammedan then? Or was Advaita prabhu a fool? Advaita Ācārya was the president of the brāhmaṇa community. This was His verdict. He said, “Haridāsa Ṭhākura, by feeding you one receives more benefit than feeding one thousand brāhmaṇas.” But he was a Muslim by caste. He himself admitted “Mahārāja, you are elevating me to such a high position, you are offering the śrāddha-pātra to me first, but you will be condemned for this in the society.” So He said “let anyone dare to come and talk to me. I will prove that the benefit of feeding you is more than feeding one thousand brāhmaṇas.” Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally took Haridāsa’s dead body and put into Samādhi and chanted in ecstasy. So we have to follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s consideration. He Himself said,

kibā vipra, kibā nyāsī, śūdra kene naya
yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei ‘guru’ haya
[Cc. Madhya 8.128]

This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Whether one is a brāhmaṇa or a śūdra, whether he is a gṛhastha or a sannyāsi, if he knows the science of Kṛṣṇa then he is guru. Kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya, therefore just to set an example Caitanya Mahāprabhu awarded the title ‘Nāmācārya’ to Haridāsa Ṭhākura. He was the ācārya for holy name. The Supreme Lord descended to spread the holy name, but He Himself did not become the ācārya. He made Haridāsa Ṭhākura the nāmācārya. Therefore we glorify him, “Nāmācārya Śrīla Haridāsa Ṭhākura kī jaya.” These considerations are there in India, but are being kept locked. Now between India and ….]

Indian man:
[Transl. Now it appears like a miracle….]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. What’s miracle? Caitanya Mahāprabhu had already predicted,

pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma
sarvatra pracāra haibe mora nāma
[CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126]

“In every town and village on this earth the glories of My name will be chanted.”

Indian man:
[Transl. Mahārāja, I haven’t seen those times with my own eyes. So I don’t know. What I have seen in front of me that I am telling.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. These are all written in the books. It’s all there in the śāstra.]

Indian man:
[Transl. I am not saying about the śāstra.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. The secret is…since you are saying all this, you are saying, hence I say this, I never said this before, the secret is that I was always thinking. When my Guru Mahārāja asked me to preach in the Western countries in English, I was always thinking how these people will accept it? As soon as I will say you give up illicit sex, meat eating, gambling, who will accept it? This actually I was thinking. But I had a firm faith that since Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said that My name will be preached all over the world, so how can it be false? That was my conviction. Therefore at the age of seventy, in Vṛndāvana, my Guru Mahārāja had ordered me, Caitanya Mahāprabhu has predicted, so I decided let me try once.]

Indian man:
[Transl. Trying. You are still trying.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. And I have been successful only by their blessings.]

Indian man:
[Transl. That’s true.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. I was hopeless. How is it possible?]

Indian man:
[Transl. You may say, I was hopeless, but your Guru Mahārāja dreamt about it.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. This firm belief. The firm belief was that since Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, it’s definitely going to happen. Take a chance.]

Indian man:
[Transl. He used your body as an instrument. This is a fact.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. But I always had unshakable faith that since Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said that the whole world will take it, though I was hopeless, I thought let me try once.]

Indian man:
[Transl. One time you were telling me that for one full year you couldn’t do anything there. No success. Your one year…]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. My strong faith was as it is stated in the Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, śraddhā’-śabde-viśvāsa kahe sudṛḍha niścaya, śraddhā refers to firm conviction and confidence. Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. [Cc. Madhya 22.62] That much full faith I had. If you want to know the secret of my success, this is it. Why wouldn’t it happen? Did Caitanya Mahāprabhu say something useless?]

Indian man:
[Transl. My feeling is that you must have been inspired from within.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Yes. Inspiration.]

Indian man:
[Transl. That’s what we say. Yesterday I went to Govardhana at Gayā Prasāda Mahārājī’s place and we were talking about you. He too agreed that you are a very great vibhūti. I told him so many vaiṣṇavas have come and all that. So he said that nobody became successful. Even Maharishi Mahesh Yogi failed. Many persons tried but only you became successful. None else succeeded.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. That’s a fact.]

Indian man:
[Transl. Mahesh Yogi’s followers came here one time from Rishikesh and I told them…]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. This Mahesh yogi, his personal secretary who lived with him always, once asked him “Mahārāja, I want Bhagavān.” So replied, if you want Bhagavān then you go to Bhakti Vedanta Svāmī. He said that.]

Indian man (2):
[Transl. Mahārājajī, he had a personal legal advisor, He left him and came to me.]

Indian man:
[Transl. We heard the secret of Mahesh Yogi from someone. He was a disciple of Śaṅkarācārya’s follower. He was Vaiśya by caste. Later he separately and made his own mission. It’s only business there and nothing else.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. His philosophy is…These Europeans and Americans are very much fond of yoga and things like that. And these people go to their countries and cheat them. Those that are cheated they never go back to him. This is his philosophy. Because these fools are cheated by the so called yoga, should we just cheat them and make some money? This is the position.]

Indian man:
[Transl. I went to Haridvāra and saw many foreigners as well as Indians in Svargāśrama. Mr. Somani was there. He said to him, teach us some yoga so that we may have peace of mind. So he said, sit down. And we sat down. Nothing special about him. He did say some good things for a very short time. It was summer and the whole place was crowded. I heard he fought with his own guru and poisoned him. There was a big group behind this. When he died then he took charge of the whole thing.]

Indian man (2):
[Transl. First he goes to Śaṅkarācāryas then later he becomes their enemy.]

Indian man:
[Transl. He was not successful.]

Indian man (2):
[Transl. Mahārāja, there are two amazing histories of two communities. One is Musselmans and the other is Christians. The Musselmans behaved very badly with us. The Christians were always after money. And you flowed the Ganges upside down. You not only brought money but also converted them to Hindus with shaved heads. [laughter] You did the opposite.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. I gave initiation to Mussalman. Yesterday.]

Indian man (2):
[Transl. Musselmans are also in your society.]

Indian man:
[Transl. Yesterday? Here? Really? When they are converted the Hindus become delighted.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. That too from Iran.]

Indian man:
[Transl. You said you had one Svāmī whose name was Ayatulla…]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. He is there.]

Indian man:
[Transl. Mahārājajī, I read some history about the…]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. In Hyderabad there is one Māyāvādī Svāmī. He writes “Jagadguru” before his name. So some people of Hyderabad challenged him that you write your name Jagadguru, but have you ever seen the jagat: the whole world? Have you ever travelled outside India? Then why do you write Jagadguru?]

Indian man (2):
[Transl. He is right.]

Indian man:
[Transl. There was one man here I wouldn’t quote his name, he also used to write “Mahāmaṇḍaleśvara”: a leader of a religious province, before his name. So one officer approached him and asked how dare he uses the title. So the man plainly replied “Sir, no big deal. Printing press is there. I just threw ten rupees and printed some pamphlets and letterheads.” [laughter] This is going on. The officer told him “Mahārāja, you are directly a miracle! This is not good at all.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Actually our philosophy is not to convert someone as Hindu or as Mussalman. That is not our philosophy.]

Indian man:
[Transl. They are becoming automatically.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. See for example, when someone asks me that can one attain God from Christian religion? I say, why not? You follow correctly what Christianity says. Now Jesus Christ said “Thou shall not kill.” But you are very expert in killing. So how you are…What kind of Christian you are?]

Indian man:
[Transl. Right. You are absolutely right.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. If one is genuinely a Christian then he too can go back to Godhead. If a Mussalman properly follows the techings of Mohammed… Because they are all Śaktyāveśa-avatāras: empowered incarnations, they preached the name of God to so many persons. He made the Musselmans who abominally misbehave with their own mother, bow down their heads and offer prayers to God in the Mosque five times a day. Is that an ordinary task?]

Indian man (2):
[Transl. Not an easy job.]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. So according to place, time and candidate some differences will always be there. That you cannot remove. But how far a preacher can explain about God to these types of people? This should be praised. As far as the Christians are concerned, Jesus Christ gave them the 10 Commandments, and the first is thou shall not kill. And after hearing all that the first thing they did was to kill him. Now imagine what kind people they were. He prohibited them. Don’t kill. And they decided to kill him first.]

Indian man:
[Transl. Mahārāja, once the chief of the Ford company came to meet you. What did you discuss with him?]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Yes. His wish is that here religion is already present, therefore you should go to those places where there is no religion, and preach. So I indirectly told him that here also there is no religion. Because, Christ says, thou shall not kill. And everyone kills. So where is religion here? He told me as a devotee that religion is already here in India. There is no need to preach here. Go where there is no religion.]

Indian man:
[Transl. Now, Mahārāja, there is no complaint that religion is absent here. Since the Musselmans…]

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. No. I told him that here also no religion. Where is religion here?]

Indian man (2):
[Transl. Are Musselmans in majority in religion? They are the first.]

Indian:
No. First Christian, second Mussalman, third Hindu. I mean fourth Hindu …

Prabhupāda:
The fourth who?

Indian (2):
Fourth Hindu, Mahārāja. First Christian, second Mohammedan, third Buddhist. Fourth Hindu.

Prabhupāda:
[Transl. Okay then.]

Indian man:
[Transl. Mahārāja, we are grateful to you for coming over here.]

Prabhupāda:
Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] [end]