Morning Walk
Prabhupāda: …strength of śāstra we are challenging that “You have never gone to the moon planet.” Who can do that? The whole world is accepting they have gone to moon planet, and we are challenging, “You have never gone to moon.”
[aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Calcutta had called me up this morning. They are expecting about two lakhs’ people in Māyāpur today and tomorrow. There’s a big festival, and Jayapatākā Mahārāja spoke to me also. He’s going to come here next Wednesday.
Prabhupāda: Two lakhs’ people?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: During the next three-, four-day festival…
Prabhupāda: What is that festival?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It’s… It happens every year at this time.
Prabhupāda: What is this time? [break]
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bengali Gītār Gān is ready and Jayapatākā Swami is taking delivery of it in the morning. [break]
Prabhupāda: Copies. [break] They could not conclude when the battle of Kurukṣetra was fought.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are speculating, though. There is one school which says it wasn’t fought in Kurukṣetra.
Prabhupāda: As soon as there will be one school and other school, that means all of them are rascals. Just like the sun rises from this side. There cannot be two schools. If somebody says, “No, no. Sun rises from this side,” if that is school, he’s a fool. Sun rises from the eastern side. That’s all. That is knowledge. If somebody says, “No, sometimes in the western side, sometimes in the northern side,” is that any value? So as soon as there will be many schools, that means the conclusion is not right.
Yaśomatīnandana: Someone was telling me, and I was telling that if somebody is not following the particular characteristic of a saintly person mentioned in the śastra, they cannot be accepted as a *sādhu. *So he was trying to prove that some sādhus, so-called, who eat meat, and who are drinking, they were actually great paramahaṁsas.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā?
Yaśomatīnandana: And then I… He said that because in the previous ages there is mention of… In the śāstras there is mention that there were many ṛṣis and munis who were eating meat.
Prabhupāda: He knows them. He is such a rascal that he knows only, and nobody knows. That is the verdict of this Ramakrishna Mission.
Yaśomatīnandana: They say that they would… These *ṛṣis *would kill one elephant or something like that, and they would live on him for whole year.
Prabhupāda: Where is that information? Where he got this information? You did not challenge?
Yaśomatīnandana: Well, I said that that *ṛṣi and muni *must be just like the *ṛṣis *and *munis *you are talking about now.
Prabhupāda: We don’t find any such thing. In this way they have ruined Indian culture by misquoting, by misleading.
Yaśomatīnandana: And he admitted that Vivekānanda smoked gāñjā and he was eating meat.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yaśomatīnandana: But for such a soul, he said, there is no conditioning like that. Then, when you quote any verse from *Bhagavad-gītā *contrary to such statement, immediately he would say, “Well, *Bhagavad-gītā *is not the only scripture.” [break]
Prabhupāda: …very nicely, without any fail. Dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsām [SB 1.2.8]*. *But if he does not become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then where is the profit? It is simply waste of time and energy, *śrama eva hi kevalam. *
Yaśomatīnandana: Waste of time.
Prabhupāda: Anything, whatever it may be, it doesn’t matter. Yei kṛṣṇa tattva vettā… If he knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, then he is guru. Yei kṛṣṇa tattva vettā sei guru haya [Cc Madhya 8.128]. [Transl. You don’t eat, you don’t sleep, that’s all right. But tell me what you know about Kṛṣṇa. If you cannot speak about Kṛṣṇa then everything is useless.] [break]
Yaśomatīnandana: …people, they are nice pious people, and they have accepted some of these gymnastic people as their guru. So they say, “Oh, our gurujī is here. We have to go see our gurujī,” this, that. So how should we treat to them, or how should we preach to them?
Prabhupāda: That you cannot do immediately unless he understands your philosophy. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg 2.59].* Unless they understand that this philosophy is better than that, how he can give it up?
Yaśomatīnandana: Sometimes they even say that “You have your guru and I have my *guru. *It’s all the same thing.”
Prabhupāda: Yes, and a thief has also a guru. Then that guru is also the same thing. [Transl. A thief also has a guru. So that guru is also all right. All gurus are good if a thief’s guru is good.] Here *guru means tasmād gurum prapadyeta jijñāsur śreya uttaman [SB 11.3.21]. [Transl. One who wants the ultimate benefit of life, he requires a guru. That is real guru.] *Nāpnuvanti mahātmānam saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ. [Bg 8.15]
Yaśomatīnandana: Isn’t there some conditioning between the* guru *and śiṣya, that “The *guru *should be like this and a śiṣya should be like this”?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yaśomatīnandana: Not that anybody can say, “I am śiśya,” and not anybody can say, “I am guru.”
Prabhupāda: Saṁsāra-dāvā. You are singing daily. Saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam. One who can deliver from this entanglement of material, miserable condition of life, he is guru. That is the first definition of guru. *Saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam, prāptasya kalyāṇa—*one who has obtained this qualification—vande guroḥ śrī caraṇāra…, he is guru.
Yaśomatīnandana: ’Cause nowadays…
Prabhupāda: Nowadays… Nowadays let them talk all nonsense. But this is the definition of guru. “Nowadays the sun is rising on the western side.” If somebody says like that, who is going to accept it? “Nowadays.” There is no question of “nowadays” and “formerly.” The truth is truth always. Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is Absolute Truth.
[aside:] Jaya.
Yaśomatīnandana: So many yajñas and śibirs and everything going on, everywhere you see. It’s so hard…
Prabhupāda: Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32]*. *Those who are very intelligent, those whose brain clear, they, yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ prayair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ.
kṛte yad dhyāyato viṣṇuṁ
tretāyāṁ yajato makhaiḥ
dvāpare paricaryāyāṁ
kalau tad dhari-kīrtanāt
[SB 12.3.52]
What *yajñas *they will perform? Not possible. Where is the yājñic brāhmaṇa?
[break] “Don’t talk. I am very busy.” [laughter]
[break] …greatest contribution?
Brahmānanda: “The greatest contribution of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is its authorized translations of the Vedic literature.” Oh, “The greatest contribution to scholars.” No. “The greatest contribution of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is that it is providing to scholars authorized translations of these Vedic literatures.”
Prabhupāda: That is the remark of a very big professor.
Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how do we support our challenge that they have not gone to the moon?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Devotee (3): How do we support our challenge to the scientists that they have not actually gone to the moon?
Prabhupāda: First proof is that they say that there is no life. That is a foolishness. There is life. Because we find everywhere life; why not in the moon planet? And there are many others. The first challenge is this.
Devotee (3): They say that they have not seen the life, though.
Prabhupāda: But what you can see, rascal? Therefore we say you are rascals. Why do you believe your eyes? You cannot see so many things. We don’t find any living entity in the ocean. Does it mean there is no living entity? So what is the value of your seeing? That is the defect. They are believing in too much their eyes. Although eyes are… Every sense is imperfect. You can see here: “Oh, we don’t find anything. It is all zero.” Does it mean the sky is zero? There are millions of planets and millions of living entities. So that is their rascaldom. They think that they are perfect. Whatever they see, that is perfect. That is their mistake. If I say, “No, there is no life. I cannot see,” is that very good statement? And in the…, externally you don’t find any living entity, but is it void of living entities?
Then why shall I assert that “There is no living… I cannot see”? Is that very good proposal? Therefore they are rascals. There cannot be any place within this universe which is without life. There cannot be. We see there is life even within sand. How you can say there is no life? “Because I cannot see.” What is this argument? What you are? You are a rascal. Because you cannot see, therefore we have to accept? First of all we say you are a rascal. And if he says that “I cannot see,” has it to be accepted? And the example is there. “I cannot see any life. It is simply water.” But there are millions and trillions of life, big, big fish. Where is your perfection of seeing?
Devotee (3): Prabhupāda? Why are the big authorities, like the government people…?
Prabhupāda: Nobody is authority. That is our first assertion. Nobody is authority. Therefore we have placed “Kṛṣṇa consciousness.” Kṛṣṇa is only authority. All rascals. That is our first assertion—[aside:] Good morning—that except Kṛṣṇa there is no authority. And one who follows Kṛṣṇa, he is authority.
Devotee (3): Why are the so-called scientists trying to make the common people believe that…
Prabhupāda: Because they are so-called scientists. You have already explained. Why you are asking? [laughter] You have already explained, “so-called scientists.” That’s all. They are not scientists; they are so-called scientists.
Devotee (3): Why do they want to fool the people?
Prabhupāda: Because you are fool. Because you are fool, therefore you become befooled. We do not become befooled by their words. You are fool; you will be befooled. If you want to remain fool, then you will be befooled. And if you become intelligent, then you will not be befooled. They can befool when there are many fools. If there is no fool they cannot befool. Do you follow this?
Devotee (3): Yes.
Prabhupāda: * Jaya.*
Devotee (3): The scientists, they are also fools.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Devotee (3): The scientists are also fools.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Mūḍhā. That is our definition in the Bhagavad-gītā. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg 7.15].* So much educated? Māyayāpahṛta-jñānā āsuraṁ-bhāvam āśritāḥ. Their knowledge has no value. The *māyā *has taken away everything.
*Indian man (4): [Transl. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Sāheb]
Prabhupāda: M*āyayāpahṛta jñānā. *
- [aside:] *Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (4): This is Jindal. Mohanlalji.
Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Unless one understands Kṛṣṇa… Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg 15.15].* Veda means knowledge. So all kinds of knowledge, they are aiming at the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So if one does not understand what is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then *māyayāpahṛta-jñānā—*he has no knowledge. Knowledge means ultimately he must know what is God. That is knowledge. Yei kṛṣṇa tattva vetta sei guru haya. Anyone who knows Kṛṣṇa, he becomes guru. Otherwise not. The first test is you may be scientist, philosopher, educationist, whatever you may be, but ask him, “Do you know Kṛṣṇa?” If he says, “No,” then he is a fool. That’s all. This is the test. [chuckles] Hare Kṛṣṇa. So Ambarī ṣa Mahārāja, do you agree?
Ambarīṣa: Yes. It’s a good test.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Goldsmith, they take a stone, black stone. Do you know? And they rub the gold on the stone, and they can immediately say whether it is gold or not. So our that stone is Kṛṣṇa. If anyone knows Kṛṣṇa, then it is gold. [laughter]
Devotees: *Haribol! Jaya *Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise it is bogus. [laughter]
Indian man (5): It is very good.
Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Formerly these goldsmith boys, their father simply taught how to test gold. And as soon as he learns, he opens a shop and he earns thousands and thousands of rupees. No education. Simply by…
Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Even today the jewelers’ sons, they are expert in knowing diamonds and they make millions of rupees.
*Indian man (4): [Transl. Even now the gold merchants are like that. They don’t know A.B.C.D. Simply by touching they can tell that this metal has 80 percent or 75 percent gold in it. Take the money. Just by seeing the gold they will tell you it is 90 percent gold.]
*Prabhupāda: [Transl. Our neighbour Ratna Parekh.] This is Indian old fashion. They simply know how to test jewels and gold. That’s all. One knowledge makes him rich.
vyavasāyātmikā buddhir
ekeha kuru-nandana
bahu-śākhā hy anantāś ca
buddhayo ’vyavasāyinām
[Bg 2.41]
Prabhupāda: Avyavasāyinām bahu-śākha. And *vyavasāyayinām—*one. From practical point of view, from business point of view also, I started this Kṛṣṇa conscious business with forty rupees. Now we have forty *crores. *Who has got such business success? [laughter] Bring anyone. Within ten years. And here is Ambarī ṣa Mahārāja. He is ready to give us any money, any amount of money. Ambarī ṣa Mahārāja, yes. Whole Ford Company. [laughter] So who has got this business? [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Jaya. *I think there is no such history in the world, to begin business with forty rupees, and within ten years it becomes forty *crores. *One cannot imagine even.
Yaśomatīnandana: Yes.
*Prabhupāda: [Transl. This is what Nair thought. This fellow is a beggar, from where he will bring fourteen thousands rupees? Just take away whatever he has got. That’s all. Finished.]
*Indian man (4): [Transl. His policy was like that. Just loot the new people. But he forgot that he himself will be looted. God has looted him.]
*Prabhupāda: [Transl. I mean, nobody could believe. I told him that I have a few thousand rupees I will give you now. Balance I will pay by and by. Who would agree? This man is a beggar. How will he pay fourteen lakhs, twelve lakhs? Wherefrom he will bring? Let me take whatever three, four lakhs he has got. But he was finished. That’s what he thought. Every businessman thinks like this.] “You are servant, and wherefrom you will get twelve lakhs of rupees within three years? You cannot get it.” [Transl. Now this one has come.] Busy. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] Learn from dog one lesson [they are very faithful to the master]. Very faithful. [break] …do not see anything now in the sky. Does it mean it is vacant? So what is the value of your seeing?
Brahmānanda: There’s a philosophy that says that if a tree falls down in a forest and I am not there to see it, then it hasn’t happened.
Prabhupāda: There is philosophy?
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So what is that logic? Hmm?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Want to see everything with their own eyes.
Girirāja: They think the existence of the tree is dependent on their sense perception.
Prabhupāda: Gladstone or what…, that poet? “Full many flowers’ blush unseen.” Therefore there is no flower? “Full many flowers’ blush unseen.” This is foolish philosophy. Now this plane is going. After half an hour it will not be seen. Does it mean it is finished? [laughter] There is no more?
Indian man (7): But also in the sky we can see something. I can see many things. I can see something. It is not vacant space. Only thing, I don’t know what it is.
Prabhupāda: Then you cannot see the stars. Can you see the stars now?
Indian man (7): No.
Prabhupāda: Then can you say there is no star? Then? That means what you cannot see, that is not final. Therefore our Vedic instruction is śāstra cakṣusāt [Vedānta-sūtra] You should see through the* śāstra,* not your these useless eyes. These are useless. Tad-vijñānārtham sa gurum evābhigacchet [Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.2.12].* In order to know perfectly, one should go to the *guru. *And *Bhagavad-gītā *has said,
tad viddhi praṇipātena
paripraśnena sevayā
upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ
jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ
[Bg 4.34]
“One who has seen, go there and learn it.” That is the injunction. Don’t try to see yourself. That is foolishness. This very word is used, tattva-darśinaḥ, “one who has seen.” You have to go there and see through his eyes, through his instructions. That is real seeing.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They’re paying you respects, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hmm? Oh.
[aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.
Yaśomatīnandana: No one has any chance against your philosophy. No one has any chance. Many times people start arguing. Within five or ten minutes they are completely calmed down. And after fifteen minutes, “Because we started arguing, we have learned so much from you.”
Prabhupāda: That is sane man.
*Indian man (4): [Transl. The learned men here have nothing to protest. Our country is spoiled because of so many manufactured opinions.]
*Prabhupāda: [Transl. Yes. Other countries they at least accept but these people here they don’t accept even.]
*Indian man (4): [Transl. Don’t accept only. The Paṇḍitas’ do not know. When questioned they drive them away.] [break]
Dr. Patel: …why I come so early and all that thing. Shall I say, sir?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel:
prasaṅgam ajaraṁ pāśam
ātmanaḥ kavayo viduḥ
sa eva sādhuṣu kṛtaḥ
mokṣa-dvāram apāvṛtam
[SB 3.25.20]
That is why I come so early. You may explain them, sir.
Prabhupāda: No, you explain.
*Dr. Patel: [laughs] It is said in Śrīmad-Bhāgavata that your mind, ātmanaḥ prasaṅga, the saṅga. Saṅga means attachment.
Prabhupāda: Prasaṅgam.
Dr. Patel: *Prasaṅga *and saṅga, the same.
Prabhupāda: No, no. *Prakṛṣṭa-rupena saṅga. *Very tight.
Dr. Patel: *Saṅga. *Very tight saṅga, very tight attachment of mind is there always.
Prabhupāda: Not mind; of the soul.
Dr. Patel: Ātmanaḥ. Because mind and soul, both are… There is always there, *ajara, *undying. “But if that attachment is made to a sādhu, that becomes *mokṣa-dvāram apāvṛtam, *that becomes opening of the door of mokṣa.” So I come here to sādhuṣu kṛtaḥ.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, another *śloka *is made by Rūpa Gosvāmī. He is praying to Kṛṣṇa that “As a young man has got attachment for young woman and young woman has got attachment for the young man, similar attachment, when I’ll have upon You?” This is very natural to young men and young women, attachment. The whole world is going on on this, what is called, sex attachment. Puṁsam striya thunī-bhāvam etad. [SB 5.5.8] This material world means they are combined together on the platform of sex. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ [SB 7.9.45]. *So that is a very great attachment. So Rūpa Gosvāmī is praying, “When I will have the same attachment for You?” *Yuvatīnāṁ yathā yunoḥ. [From Padma Purāṇa 1.20.19 quoated in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.153] * [break]
Dr. Patel: …have heard something else in Gujarati. Indriyon ne lāḍ laḍāyomaye kāma karacha, “The work that you do for satisfaction of the indriyas, lāḍ laḍāva… keval īśvara ne lāḍome to karo to tomāre bhakti taichie. That is the bhakti, when you do same action for *lāḍao lāḍ *God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difference between kāma and prema. *Kāma *means worldly attachment, and prema means attachment for God. That’s all. In *Caitanya-caritāmṛta *it is said, *atmendriya-tṛpti-vañchā tāra nāma kāma [Ādi 4.165] *“When one desires his own sense gratification, that is called kāma.” And kṛṣṇendriya-tṛpti-vañchā dhare prema nāma.
Dr. Patel: That is prema.
Prabhupāda: That is prema. “When one wants to satisfy Kṛṣṇa’s senses, that is prema.”
Dr. Patel: That is called lust and love.
Prabhupāda: This is the difference between lust and love. Just like gopī. It looks like *kāma, *but it is prema.
Dr. Patel: They say, sir, that *gopīs really, they are kāmātura * [afflicted by lust], and when they touched the sacred feet of Kṛṣṇa their whole thing was turned into the sacred prema.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Because, you see, every woman loves the husband, but they don’t become gopīs because the husband hasn’t got that qualities like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was above tri-guṇas, so they became tri-guṇātita, all gopīs. Actually they were motivated by kāma, but when they actually had the source of all prema, touched the feet of Kṛṣṇa, they converted themselves beyond all the three guṇas. Because the God is not within the *māyā, *He is above it, so anything which goes there comes above it. [break]
Prabhupāda: …understanding Kṛṣṇa’s position, if one… Kṛṣṇa…
Dr. Patel: They are talking nonsense about rāsa-līlā.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: They are so silly, they don’t understand, because they include their own self there. They think that Kṛṣṇa was just like them, and then they substitute themselves with gopīs, what they would do with gopīs.
Prabhupāda: *Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ, paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ [Bg 9.11]. Param * [Transl. Therefore one has to first understand the transcendental nature then discuss rāsa-līlā.] Otherwise it is…
Dr. Patel: It is said that gopīs were not foolish. They were very intelligent girls, extremely, because they chose what was to be chosen. [break]
Prabhupāda: Eternal companion of Kṛṣṇa. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ [Bs 5.37]. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāva. The gopīs* are expansion of Kṛṣṇa’s ānanda-cinmaya-rasa pleasure potency. Rūpa Gosvāmī, tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tucchavat [Śrī Śrī Ṣaḍ Gosvāmy Aṣṭaka 4].* [Transl. They renounced the whole.] Tucchavat. But the engagement was gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtābdhi-laharī. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg 2.59].*
Dr. Patel: Yes, that is right, sir. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. Because the little part of it is remaining there, and that never goes away from communion with God.
*Prabhupāda: [Transl. *Paraṁ dṛṣṭi: *experiencing a higher taste is possible by sādhu-saṅga.]
Dr. Patel: Hmm. Because they are the agents of* param.*
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Mokṣa-dvāra apāvṛtam.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] *Bhakti *without *jñāna *can be practiced. So when there is *bhakti, *automatically there is jñāna.
vāsudeve bhagavati
bhakti-yogaḥ-prayojitaḥ
janayaty āśu vairāgyaṁ
jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam
[SB 1.2.7]
Without *bhakti *there is no jñāna. But without *jñāna, bhakti *can be practiced.
Devotee: Jaya. Haribol.
*Prabhupāda: [Transl. Bhakti is independent. Ahaituky apratihatā: [unmotivated and uninterrupted]. [SB 1.2.6] Indepentdend. Bhakti is inclusive of jñāna, yoga, karma, everything.]
*Indian man: [Transl. Bhakti can be practiced without jñāna.]
Prabhupāda: Yes.
*Dr. Patel: [Transl. Jñāna is included. That is what he says.]
Prabhupāda: Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa says, striya śūdrās tathā vaiśyās te ’pi yānti parāṁ gatim? [Transl. These people have no knowledge.] Stri, śūdra or vaiśya, they are not advanced in knowledge, but Kṛṣṇa says, striya śūdrās tathā vaiśyās te ’pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye ’pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ [Bg 9.32]. [Transl. What knowledge do the sinful persons have? They don’t have knowledge, but] Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ-prayojitaḥ [SB 1.2.7]. When he applies bhakti-yoga at the lotus feet of Vāsudeva, janayaty āśu vairāgyam. [Transl. The real meaning of knowledge is renunciation. Without renunciation what is meaning of knowledge?]
Dr. Patel: *Jñāna *means only God is right, Kṛṣṇa is right, and all this is wrong.
Prabhupāda: No, jñāna means… Real *jñāna *means “We don’t want this material world.” That is jñāna. That is *vairāgya. *Because people are attached to this material world, and *jñāna *means completely detached. Because he’s suffering. On account of this attachment, he’s taking repeatedly birth, birth, birth, death, birth, death, birth. So *jñāna *means to get release from this repetition of birth and death.
Dr. Patel: That is because the people have *ātmā-buddhi *and kunape tri-dhātuke.
Prabhupāda: These rascals talk of jñāna, but they keep full attachment for this material world.
Dr. Patel: The kuṇape tri-dhātuke. [SB 10.84.13]
*Prabhupāda: [Transl. It is like dog’s tail. It will remain bent always no matter how hard you try to straighten by applying ghee on it. This is the point.]
*Indian man (4): [Transl. Never becomes straight.]
*Prabhupāda: [Transl. Never. What is the value of such knowledge? Knowledge means renunciation.] Jñāna-vairāgyam. One must feel disgusted in this material world, repetition of birth and death. That is jñāna. If one is not disgusted—he still thinks it is very nice to take birth and die—then where is jñāna? There is no jñāna. Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s disciples said, āra nāre bāpa. Āra nāre bāpa [CB Madhya-khaṇḍa 13.225]. [Transl. You also say, no more sir, no? I don’t want any more of this, my Lord. That is real renunciation. Āra nāre bāpa.]
Dr. Patel: No, even, you see, sir, this attraction to the other sex is so strong and great it is very difficult for human beings to get relief.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is to be explained. That is explained, Bhagavad-gītā,
daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayi
mama māyā duratyayā
mām eva ye prapadyante
māyām etāṁ taran…
[Bg 7.14]
This is the way.
[aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.
Dr. Patel: Extremely difficult, that even man like Gautama Buddha had several times come back to see his child and son when he left his house, more than half a dozen times, come and go, come and go. Finally he closed his eyes and ran away. A man of that type. And for ordinary human beings it is very difficult.
Prabhupāda: No, it is not difficult. Therefore *vānaprastha is recommended, that “Go out of home, remain in the tīrtha-sthāna *and again come, see your children. Again go. Then take sannyāsa.
Dr. Patel: Tapering it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [Transl. Even big, big demigods are entangled in this business. Heavenly pleasures. Nandana-kānana: celestial forests.They are all entangled.]
Dr. Patel: That is why *devata-loka *is not a place from where you can have a release. It is from human life that you can have moksa. Devatas cannot get it.
Prabhupāda: No, no, human… *Devatas *cannot, because they have got enough of material enjoyment.
Dr. Patel: The Americans.
Prabhupāda: Just like America… [laughs] Americans have not even one percent. They are many thousands times opulent, the demigods. So it is very difficult. Just like here, for a very rich man to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very difficult. That is a disquali…
bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ
tayāpahṛta-cetasām
vyavasāyātmikā-buddhiḥ
samādhau na dhigacchati
[Bg 2.44]
[Transl. *If you have too much sense enjoyment and opulence then you will not have attraction for the Supreme Lord. Therefore renunciation is required.] Voluntarily sannyāsa. All big, big kings in India, voluntarily: “Eh! Give it! Kick it out!” Mahārāja Bharata, at the age of twenty-four years, he left everything-young wife, children, kingdom, whole world-gave it up. This is Indian culture, vairāgya. Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja * [Transl. *engaged in fighting and ruling but] as soon as the grandson, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, was major: “Take it. We are going.” That is the required. *
[Transl. Until one is shot dead he will not renounce.] Even Mahatma [Gandhi]. He declared himself mahātmā. He is such a mahātmā that unless he was killed by goli [bullet[, he was not leaving anything. He was not prepared. This is mahātmā, Kali-yūga kā mahātmā: [mahātmā of kali-yuga]. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manaso [Bg 9.13]. *
[Transl. That is mahātmā. And to the last point of death] politics, politics, politics. [Transl. Our country, our nation, our people, is that a mahātmā? This is going on. [break]…that is also Kṛṣṇa’s will. Gandhi’s] …nonviolence theory. Kṛṣṇa said, “You will die by violence. Nonviolence… There cannot be nonviolence. You wanted to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā and criticize Me, Kṛṣṇa. All right, you die.” Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: But it was Nehru who said that Kṛṣṇa was a war-mongerer. Mr. Nehru, he was more…
Prabhupāda: Nehru is… What is his value?
Dr. Patel: He said, “Kṛṣṇa is the greatest war-mongerer.”
Prabhupāda: Nehru and company are praised… That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhag… Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]*. Puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. *A big animal is being eulogized by small animals. Does it mean a big animal is a human being? He’s animal.
Dr. Patel: I think he had not understood exactly.
Prabhupāda: What he understood?
Dr. Patel: The second adhyāya, Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: He never knew what is Gītā. He plainly…
Yaśomatīnandana: He was an atheist.
Prabhupāda: In America, when he went, somebody requested, “You explain something of Gītā.” He said, “I do not know much about Gītā.” He explained. He frankly admitted that “I do not know.” His excuse was like that. And he did not know anything. He thought, “Overnight, if I make my country like America, that is success.” And he constructed a few skyscraper building, or big, big building in New Delhi, and he thought, “My country is like that.” Therefore, when President Eisenhower came, he wanted to see the village. And as soon as he saw the village, the secret was out.
Dr. Patel: No, that man was a dreamer rather than a practical man. Practical man was only Sardar Patel.
Prabhupāda: Jaya.
[break] Those who are intelligent Indians, they should combine together and present Indian culture as it is. Then the country will be glorified. [aside:] Hare Kṛṣṇa.
[break] ..sārthaka kari kara para-upakāra [Cc Ādi 9.41]. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s. The whole world is in darkness. Give them some light. First of all you yourself take light; then you distribute.
[japa] [break] …letter, that “Now you have got sva-rājya [independent country], you give up this nonsense. Preach Bhagavad-gītā. Otherwise you will meet the fate of Mussolini.” And actually it was done.
Yaśomatīnandana: It seems that it is better that he did not preach Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yaśomatīnandana: With his understanding.
Prabhupāda: Of course, one cannot preach *Bhagavad-gītā *unless he is empowered by Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. Kṛṣṇa śakti vinā nahe nāma pracāraṇa [Cc Antya 7.11]. It is not possible. [Aside:] You are leaving? [end]