Room Conversation

*Prabhupāda: [Transl. So if they are not educated and remain in darkness, of what use is this kind of education? If he does not know what body he is going to acquire in the future and the body he will acquire is from 8,400,000 species of life, sarva-yoniṣu [Bg 14.4]. What is the body I will acquire, if he does not know of what use is such education? If today I am a big man and after body change I become a dog, so of what use was my being a ‘big man’ today? It is clearly said, tathā dehāntara-prāptir.] [Bg 2.13] He does not say that because you are a human being Arjuna, you will get a human body the next birth also.]

*Indian man: [Transl. Some people say that…]

*Prabhupāda: [Transl. Do not talk about what ‘some’ people say, talk about what God says. If some foolish people say something do we have to accept it? It is not about ‘some’ people, that is the difficulty now! These ordinary people speak, what is the benefit of this?]

*Indian man: [Transl. Brahma-kumārīs say that once you are born a man then you will always remain a human being…]

*Prabhupada: [Transl. So if they say so does that happen likewise?]

*Indian man: [Transl. jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-sthā adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ] [Bg 14.18]

*Prabhupāda: [Transl. God says,

ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā
madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ
jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-sthā
adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ
[Bg 14.18]

[Transl. How is it possible that because one is born as a human being he will again be born as a human being? Is he bigger than God? This is going on. This cheating should be stopped. andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās. A standard… when God is personally giving you prescription, you to live like this, you act like this and you will be happy. God says, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ] [Bg 5.29]

[Transl. “I am the friend of everybody”, suhṛt, well-wisher. So why do we not accept the words of our well-wisher? God has not said, suhṛdaṁ hindunāṁ, bhāratīyanāṁ: I am the well wisher of Hindus or Indians! suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ. The way in which every living entity is benefited, I am also included in that ‘every living entity’ and am benefited. So why do we not accept this thing? Even if we forget everything else but the first instruction God gives Arjuna initially in the Bhagavad-gītā is this śloka that, you are not fighting this war due to identifying yourself with the body that is not befitting you.]

aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ
prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase
[Bg 2.11]

[Transl. “You are talking like a learned man but you are fool number one.” This is what He has said. Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ you are talking as though you are a very learned man but you are actually very foolish. Why?

gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca
nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ
[Bg 2.11]

[Transl. “That you are lamenting in terms of the bodily concept of life, this is not the talk of a learned man.” So he is foolish! If he is not a learned man then he is a foolish man! That means whoever said that is a fool! So all the big, big talks going on in the world is all in the bodily concept of life. I am an Indian, I am American, I am Hindu, I am Muslim, I am Pakistani, I am a Hindustani—all this is based on the bodily concept of life. nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. So nobody is learned, all are foolish! Am I saying the correct thing or not, see? The scriptures further say,

Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke
[SB 10.84.13]

[Transl. This body is a bag made up of mucus, bile and air. Those who are consider this body as self, sa eva go-kharaḥ, animal. [SB 10.84.13] So how you can become happy in the society of ‘go-khara’ [cows and asses]? Bring some big dogs and tell them, ‘Dear boy, Do not bark, sit here quietly.’ will that rascal remain so? He is after all a dog! [laughs]. Similarly we have this UNESCO which is trying to promote peace programs for the last thirty years, they are all barking only. What peace can they bring about? It is not in their nature to remain peaceful. And God is telling us the program for peace,

bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ
sarva-loka-maheśvaram
suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati
[Bg 5.29]

[Transl. ‘I am the enjoyer.’ So in reality God is the only enjoyer. Who has created all these things? This house is made by Bhogilal Seth, so who will be the enjoyer he or me? I can be a guest. So similarly God has made everything so God alone will be the enjoyer also. So why are we trying to become enjoyer?]

īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam
[Īśopaniṣad Mantra]

[Transl. Everything belongs to God and we are taking the God’s property and becoming thieves. Stena eva saḥ ucyate. [Bg 3.12] Can a thief ever be peaceful? Can a person whose business is to steal ever live peacefully? So it is my request that at least in Gujarat there must be a good discussion and debate on this issue. People have become misled by all nonsensical talks. Even if you understand this one thing, tathā dehāntara-prāptir, if you understand this alone, that is why I am telling you this and I spoke to you about it earlier also, then his life will be successful. Just this one point, not more. Then slowly everything else will happen. This is a fact, dehāntara-prāptir, and the Lord is Himself giving example.]

dehino ’smin yathā dehe
kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
tathā dehāntara-prāptir
[Bg 2.13]

[Transl. This everyone can understand. If a young man says I will not become old, then that is not possible. He must become old.]

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
[Bg 3.27]

Yaśomatīnandana:

puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi
bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān
kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo ’sya
sad-asad-yoni-janmasu
[Bg 13.22]

[Transl. “The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil among various species.”]

Prabhupāda: Purport…

Yaśomatīnandana: This verse is very important for an understanding of how the living entities transmigrate from one body to another. It is explained in the Second Chapter that the living entity is transmigrating from one body to another just as one changes dress. This change of dress is due to his attachment to material existence. As long as he is captivated by this false manifestation, he has to continue transmigrating from one body to another. Due to his desire to lord it over material nature, he is put into such undesirable circumstances. Under the influence of material desire, the entity is born sometimes as a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes as a beast, as a bird, as a worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug. This is going on. And in all cases the living entity thinks himself to be the master of his circumstances, yet he is under the influence of material nature.

How he is put into such different bodies is explained here. It is due to association with the different modes of nature. One has to rise, therefore, above the three material modes and become situated in the transcendental position. That is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Unless one is situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his material consciousness will oblige him to transfer from one body to another because he has material desires since time immemorial. But he has to change that conception. That change can be effectedaffected only by hearing from authoritative sources. The best example is here: Arjuna is hearing the science of God from Kṛṣṇa. The living entity, if he submits to this hearing process, will lose his long-cherished desire to dominate material nature, and gradually and proportionately, as he reduces his long desire to dominate, he comes to enjoy spiritual happiness. In a Vedic mantra it is said that as he becomes learned in association with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he proportionately relishes his eternal blissful life.

Indian man: Śloka again?

Yaśomatīnandana:

puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi
bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān
kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo ’sya
sad-asad-yoni-janmasu
[Bg. 13.22]

Indian man:

kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo ’sya
sad-asad-yoni-janmasu

Whatever he attaches himself…

Prabhupāda: Whatever he associates with goodness, passion and ignorance. Urdhvam gacchanti sattva-sthā, find out this verse.

ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā
madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ
jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-sthā
adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ
[Bg. 14.18]

How he can check if he there is *jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti. *So, he is going downwards… downwards. how is present position will check him? That is not possible…

Indian man: Education?

Prabhupāda: So our little endeavor is that it is such a vast knowledge treasure things of knowledge and instead of distributing this if you remain in darkness, so what is the benefit? [Transl. This is the mission of Sri Caitanya Mahāprabhu],

bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra
janma sārthakpa kari’ kara para-upakāra
[Cc. Ādi 9.41]

Do good to others. Because the whole world is in darkness. Hmm.]

Yaśomatīnandana:

ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā
madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ
jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-sthā
adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ
[Bg. 14.18]

Translation: Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets; those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets; and those in the abominable mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds.

PURPORT: In this verse the results of actions in the three modes of nature are more explicitly set forth. There is an upper planetary system, consisting of the heavenly planets, where everyone is highly elevated. According to the degree of development of the mode of goodness, the living entity can be transferred to various planets in this system. The highest planet is Satyaloka, or Brahmaloka, where the prime person of this universe, Lord Brahmā, resides. We have seen already that we can hardly calculate the wondrous condition of life in Brahmaloka, but the highest condition of life, the mode of goodness, can bring us to this.

The mode of passion is mixed. It is in the middle, between the modes of goodness and ignorance. A person is not always pure, but even if he should be purely in the mode of passion, he will simply remain on this earth as a king or a rich man. But because there are mixtures, one can also go down. People on this earth, in the mode of passion or ignorance, cannot forcibly approach the higher planets by machine. In the mode of passion, there is also the chance of becoming mad in the next life.

The lowest quality, the mode of ignorance, is described here as abominable. The result of developing ignorance is very, very risky. It is the lowest quality in material nature. Beneath the human level there are eight million species of life—birds, beasts, reptiles, trees, etc.—and according to the development of the mode of ignorance, people are brought down to these abominable conditions. The word tāmasāḥ is very significant here. Tāmasāḥ indicates those who stay continuously in the mode of ignorance without rising to a higher mode. Their future is very dark.

There is an opportunity for men in the modes of ignorance and passion to be elevated to the mode of goodness, and that system is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But one who does not take advantage of this opportunity will certainly continue in the lower modes.

Prabhupada: In the Bhagavat it has been said, naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā [SB 1.2.18] Hmm?

Yaśomatīnandana: Bhagavaty uttama-śloke bhagavati uttama-śloke…

Prabhupāda: bhagavaty uttama-śloke bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī [Bg. 1.2.18]

tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ
kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye
ceta etair anāviddhaṁ
sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati
[SB. 1.2.19]

Bhagavati uttama-śloke

tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ
kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye
ceta etair anāviddhaṁ
sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati
[SB 1.2.19]

A human being should be brought into the mode of goodness. This is education. If he remains in mode of ignorance then what is the use of such education?

jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-sthā
adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ
[Bg 14.18]

We have to accept another body, dehāntara-prāptir. But how it is to be done that should be taught. Where do they teach on this subject, where is such education?

*Guest: [Transl. Secularism. There is secularism in education…]

*Prabhupāda: [Transl. This is not religion, this is science! Religion is very far away. This is dehāntara-prāptir. Like an infection or disease say small pox, you will be infected by small pox. This is not religion, this is science. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo ’sya. So if you are infected with small pox then you have to suffer it. Where is religion in this? When you are a human being then only there will be religion!]

dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītaṁ
[SB 6.3.19]

[Transl. When you are connected to God then it is religion. Otherwise what religion is this? Is concoction of the mind a religion?]

dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītaṁ

[Transl. Are there concocted laws? No! The laws are laid down by the Government. Similarly, religion means the laws given by God. God says,]

sarva-dharmān parityajya
mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja
[Bg 18.66]

[Transl. This is religion. And whatever you have manufactured this is all bogus. Therefore give it up. This is religion.]

mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja

[Transl. This is called religion. But who follows this religion? This is also said,]

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ
prapadyante narādhamāḥ
māyayāpahṛta-jñānā
āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ
[Bg 7.15]

[Transl. God is asking us to surrender. But who does not surrender to Him? Duṣkṛtina, narādhama, māyayāpahṛta-jnānā, āsuri bhāvam āśritaḥ. So does that mean nobody is left? No.]

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante
jñānavān māṁ prapadyate
[Bg 7.19]

[Transl. After wandering about for many births when one acquires knowledge in reality then he understands,]

vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti
sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ
[Bg 7.19]

[Transl. One will take birth, tathā dehāntara-prāptir, so we need to teach them that you have got this human birth now, acquire knowledge, surrender to God and make your life successful. Otherwise what is the use of acquiring knowledge of hammering?]

Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [end]