Room Conversation with Gurukula Teachers

[No Audio]

Note:
Śrīla Prabhupāda met with the gurukula teachers in the last week of July of 1975 in Dallas, Texas. We had a lengthy meeting in which Prabhupāda covered a range of topics ranging from the ultimate goal of teaching, to the instructions of Prahlāda Mahārāja in the 7th Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam about gurukula, to Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, to false Vedāntists. I don’t know what happened to the original tape, but this transcript was reviewed by Dayānanda Prabhu just after it was recorded for the accuracy of the Sanskrit and general content, listening very carefully to the tape. We both carefully proofread the English, and I can vouch for its accuracy and authenticity. —Rūpa Vilāsa

Prabhupāda:
So, what are you teaching?

Dayānanda:
Some of the teachers are academic teachers; they teach in the classroom, and some are caring for the children in the āśrama, caring for their needs, helping them get ready for maṅgala-ārati and taking care…

Prabhupāda:
So, what is the ultimate goal of teaching?

Dayānanda:
Service to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda:
Hmm?

Dayānanda:
Nine-fold process, service to Kṛṣṇa.

Maṇḍeleśvara:
Four things: man-manā …always think of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda:
Why should one want to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? One can say that I can become materially conscious. Why should I become Kṛṣṇa conscious?

Jagadīśa:
In the Vedānta-sūtra, the statement is given athātobrahma-jijñāsā, that the human life is meant for Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda:
That is all right, but why is it necessary to become Kṛṣṇa conscious?

Jagadīśa:
I am not this body; I am spirit soul. The soul is eternal.

Prabhupāda:
That’s all right, the soul is eternal—that is one of the important things. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is required because the soul is eternal, but your body is not eternal. So, in order to get rid of this repetition of birth and death, therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness. To conquer over the repetition of birth and death, and “teacher” means one who can educate the student to this understanding or this platform that there is no more birth and death.

Then it is perfect teaching. The whole thing is how to stop. Nobody wants to die, but he has no education how to become free from the punishment of death. That is what nobody has education of. And nobody wants to die, that’s a fact. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to stop this nuisance business, repetition of birth and death.

Therefore, it is compulsory, if one is actually eager. It is a fact that nobody wants to die, but he does not know. Even big, big scientists—they discover so many wonderful things, but they could not discover anything that he [they] will also not die. All big, big scientists—they die.

That means we shall also die, but after death there is no more acceptance of this material body; that means no more death. This is the last death, tyaktvādehaṁ punar janmanaitimāmetiso’rjuna.

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma
naiti mām eti so ’rjuna
[Bg. 4.9]

We are teaching that after annihilation of this body, there is no more acceptance of this material body. And, because there is no more acceptance of the material body, there is no more death. This is our… janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [birth, death, old age, and disease] [Bg. 13.9]. That should be impressed upon the students, and the teachers must know it. Then it will be successful. This is knowledge: that why should one be subjected to birth, death, old age, and disease? We do not want all these things. That is real science; that is real knowledge.

So our students should be elevated to this knowledge. And we are describing in our book show to understand this science. That is…

[pause] One gentleman, he is a lord in England, Lord Pennard Broker came to see me. So I asked, “What is your philosophy of life?” He said, “Well, I’m trying to live fully, that’s all.” But after death, he has no idea. That is the defect; nobody knows what is going to happen after death.

These people are accusing us that: “What will happen after death, thinking like that, they are already dead, except that they are not enjoying this material world.” They criticize us, “You are thinking only of what will happen after death, and you are not taking advantage while you are living.” Do they not say like that? We are also living, but we are living not like irresponsible men. Our living may seem to be different from others who are living irresponsibly.

Jagadīśa:
Srila Prabhupāda, we were wondering whether there was any information in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam about gurukula.

Prabhupāda:
Yes.

Jagadīśa:
Dayānanda Prabhu was mentioning that some things are in the seventh chapter, seventh canto…

Prabhupāda:
Seventh canto. You have got? Seventh canto? Yes. So, you want it to be published first? No. [laughter] What do you want? I shall explain, no?

Dayānanda:
That’s all right. We are eager to hear.

Prabhupāda:
Here is the first [verse]:

nāradauvāca
brahmacārī guru-kule
vasan dānto guror hitam
ācaran dāsavan nīco
gurau suḍṛdha-sauhṛdaḥ
[SB. 7.12.1]

Brahmacārī should be in gurukula. Dāntaḥ, controlling the senses. Vasan dāntaḥ and guror-hitam for the benefit of the guru, not for their personal benefit. Ācaran and dāsa-vat, acting just like a servant, the master orders and the servant carries out the order.

Dāsa-vatnīcaḥ, although he may come from a very aristocratic family, brāhmaṇa family, still he should accept the position of a menial servant. Nīcaḥ brahmacārī… nīcaḥ means humble. Not that, “Oh, the spiritual master is ordering me to do this thing which is not suitable for my position. “No, we should be humble, that my spiritual master or my teacher has asked me to do this, this consciousness should be there, not challenging.

So, brahmacārī guru-kule vasan… vasan means residing; dāntaḥ, very self-controlled. Guror-hitam, for the benefit of the guru, not for his personal benefit, guror-hitam, ācaran, practicing or behaving. Ācarandāsa-vat, just like servant, menial servant. Nīcaḥ… humble. Gurausudṛḍha, gurausudṛḍha-sauhṛdaḥ. [SB. 7.12.1]

Thesethingsareacceptedoutofloveforthespiritualmaster.Justlikeyouareworking; Iamnotpayingyou,butwhyareyouworking?Outof your love for me. This is the basic principle. *Gurau sudṛḍha-sauhṛdaḥ. Sudṛḍha…*firm. One should be convincedthatmyspiritualmasterismybest friend, andtherefore,Imustrenderservicetohimonthisbasis. Theserviceyouarerendering,itisnotpossibletobe doneevenifIpaysomebody$1,000permonth. Itisnotpossible,becauseitisoutoflove.Thereisno questionofpayment.So,thisisthebasicprinciple.

yasya deve parā bhaktir
yathā deve tathā gurau
[Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.23]

Bhakti… when one is fixed up in devotion to Kṛṣṇa and His representative guru, then everything becomes revealed automatically. Tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ prakāśante mahātmanaḥ. These are all revealed experience. These arethebasicprinciples,thatbrahmacārīs,especially,are undertheprotectionoftheguru.Heshouldbetaughtto become…thereisnoquestioninthebeginninghowmuch hehaslearnedABC,no.

Thefirstthingisthere,thatone shouldliveinthe *gurukula,*practicesensecontrol.Thebasicprincipleshouldbethatwearelivinghereforthe benefit of the guru, not for my benefit. Therefore, whateverheorders,hedesires,we execute.

Jagadīśa:
Prabhupāda, this would indicate that the atmosphere here must be very strict.

Prabhupāda:Notstrict,butitshouldbethere…itis on the basis of love. Stricture is not very good. They shoulddoitautomatically,outoflove.Thatiswanting. Superficially, there may be some stricture, but that is notaverygoodidea.Bysimplystricture,theywilltake it sadly. That is not good…Stricture, that materially there aresomanylawsandregulativeprinciplestodo;ifyou donot,you’llbepunished.Thatmaybe,buttheyshould developtheideaoflove.Thatis…

Jagadīśa:
Part of loving the children is forcing them to act according to our Kṛṣṇa conscious discipline.

Prabhupāda:
Forcingshouldnotbe ordinary. Sometimes superficially you have to do that, butthebasicprincipleshouldbelove. That force is not material force. In the material world also,sometimesthefatherforceshissontodosomething. Thatdoesnotmeanthefatheristheenemyoftheson. For the benefit of the son, sometimes he forces, sometimes he chastises. That is superficial. So that chastisement,orforce,isalsooutoflove.

Jagadīśa:
So we cannot be permissive with the children; otherwise, they will take advantage.

Prabhupāda:
No, no, that is all right. Ihavealready explained. Children, they are innocent. As you teach them,theylearn.Teachingmustbethere,disciplinemust be there, sometimes force must be applied. But everythingshouldbeonthebasisoflove.Thatrequires experience.

Dayānanda:
It seems that it would take some time to develop that, rather than immediately…

Prabhupāda:
Yes. Therulesandregulationswill teach him automatically. Just like this rising. Here it is said:

sāyaṁ prātar upāsīta
gurv-agny-arka-surottamān
ubhe sandhye ca yata-vāg
japan brahma samāhitaḥ
[SB. 7.12.2]

Thisshouldbe takenup:japa, *Hare Kṛṣṇamantraandearlyrising,then offering oblations, Deity worship. These things should bepracticed,thenautomaticallytheywilldevelop.

Jagadīśa:
Sometimes, unless we encourage them very strongly, they don’t want to chant japa.

Prabhupāda:

You shouldpractice,“Now,sitdown!ChantHareKṛṣṇa!Hare Kṛṣṇa!“Youshouldchant;theywillchant.Youshould behaveyourselfverystrictlyondiscipline,andtheywill follow.

Dwarkanātha:
It seems that we must become humble. Wemustbecomeservantstotheminthesensethatwe doeverythingthatwecantofacilitatetheirservice.Then whentheyseewearesurrenderingtoourservice,they willsurrendertous.

Prabhupāda:Verygoodidea.Exampleisbetterthan precept.Youshouldallbepersonalexamples,andthey willdothat.Youdonotpractice,ifyousimplyforcethem, thatwillnotbegood.Everyoneofyou,ifyouriseearly inthemorning,theywillalso.Ifyouthink,“Itismeant forthestudents,wearenowliberatedpersons,we can sleepupto7:30.”

Jagadīśa:
Prabhupāda, the teachers are all setting a good example in that way.

Prabhupāda:
Hmm?

Jagadīśa:
The teachers are setting a good example in that way.

Prabhupāda:
Then it will be followed. You rest assured.

Jagadīśa:
But there is a question that sometimes a teacher feels reluctant to encourage the children strongly to participate in the devotional activities.

Prabhupāda:
Why?

Jagadīśa:
Because he doesn’t want to force them to do devotional service.

Prabhupāda:
No, that should be done. Teachers must do and students must also do it.

Jagadīśa:
The love on the part of the teacher…

Prabhupāda:
No. There it is recommended…Cānakya Paṇḍita said: lālane bahavo doṣāḥ—who loves unnecessarily, to make them stupid, that is not good. *Lālanebahavodoṣāḥ.*Ifyoubecomelenient,then there will be many faults. *Tāḍane bahavo guṇāḥ…*and if you strictlyinducethem,forcibly,tobedisciplined,that is verynice.*Bahavo guṇāḥ…*that isgoodqualities. *Lālane *bahavodoṣāḥ/tāḍanebahavoguṇāḥ/tasmātputraṁcaśiṣyam catāḍayennatu lālayet.

Therefore,eithertosonsorthedisciples,students,they shouldbealwaysstrictlyforced.Don’tbelenient.Why shouldwebelenient?Thatisnotgood.Theyareafterall “child,“soifyoubecomelenienttheywillthinkthisis thepractice.No.Youmustgetup.Thatisdiscipline.

Jagadīśa:
We see that when they are given good discipline in that way, they respond nicely. They chant.

Prabhupāda:
Yes, Whyshouldyoubelenient?Thatisyourfault.But,out of “love” we shall see our sons or disciples go to hell. Thatisnotgood,thatisfoolishness. Butwhentheyaregrownup,16yearsold,theyshould betreatedasfriend.Prāptetuṣoḍaśevarṣeputraṁmitravad ācaret. [Cāṇakya Paṇḍita]

Herearetheinstructions:fromfiveto15years, all the sons and students should be kept under strict disciplinaryorder.Iftheydonotfollow,theyshouldbe chastised. Then as soon as one attains the 16th year,then treathimasfriend.Atthattime,donotforce.Thenhe’ll deviate, go out. That is happening in your western countries. Prāpte tu ṣoḍaśe varṣe putraṁ mitravad ācaret. Alltheinstructions.

Dayānanda:

We also have girls here, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda:
Hmm?

Dayānanda:
We also have girls here, Prabhupāda, so this is śiṣyaś ca putraś ca, but what about girls?

Prabhupāda:
Girl is also “putra.” Putra means putra/putrī, don’t think that. Putra means daughter and putra means son.

Dayānanda:
Strictly also with the girls?

Prabhupāda:
Yes.

Dayānanda:
Up to 16?

Prabhupāda:
Yes. Up to 15. So according to Vedic civilization up to 15th year the girl is kept under the vigilance of the father, and when she attains youthful body, then she must be entrusted to another young boy to take charge. This is Vedic. Then the father becomes relieved of the responsibility. As soon as the grownup daughter is delivered to a young man, then they live peacefully.

Jagadīśa:
Prabhupāda, in our movement the fathers are sending their daughters to gurukula. Should the daughters remain in gurukula until they are married?

Prabhupāda:
At gurukula the girls should be taught, especially, how to become chaste and, of course, an expert in cooking. Then, she will never be neglected by her husband. Her life becomes very happy.

Dayānanda:
Some of our girls are also intelligent in Sanskrit.

Prabhupāda:
That is all right. They can read śāstra, but these are the primary conditions. Then, she will be educated. She can teach, she can preach.

Jagadīśa:Prabhupāda, I heard that you suggested that the girls can be initiated when they are ten, so they can cook in the Deities’ kitchen. I think that is a good suggestion. They won’t chant 16 rounds, but if it is enforced…

Prabhupāda:
That is compulsory what I have given. Attending the functions of the temple and chanting on their beads—automatically they’ll advance. Especially the obligation ofchanting,andifyouarechanting,thatistheessence. So in every kīrtana function, every ārati, have a nice kīrtana. That speaks… [pause]

*Gurukula *means we shouldalwaysknowthat.Allthestudents,theyshould be educated in such a way that they become good citizens,gooddevotees,andtheyknowthevaluesoflife. Other schools—they do not know. They become cats and dogs. They do not know what is the value of life.

Therefore, the whole world is in a dirty condition. Studentsarenoteducated.Theyareeducatedtobecome polisheddogs,that’sall.Theyremainadog,polisheddog. Śruti means to educate the students to become human beings. That is the difference.

[break] I am running continually. What is the difference? There is no difference, so it is equally gross. But if you teach that “No, running is not our business. Ourbusinessisself-realization.“Yes.Andthedifficultyis there was no scientific teaching of spiritual education beforethismovement,atleastinthisage.Everyone bogus if you are after scientific spiritual understanding.

But because everyone is after material name,fame,andgain,theso-calledsvāmīsorpriestsand yogīs, they have also taken this as a means of earning thismaterialfame,nameandmaterialgain.They have no knowledge. That is a challenge. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is a challenge to all these rascals.

That is the special significance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Itisachallengetoallclassesofrascals.Sohowmuchwe shouldbestrongandjustremain.Itisachallengetoall rascals—so-called priests, so-called svāmīs, so-called yogīs,so-calledpoliticians.Theydonotknow.Theyhave noknowledge.

Justlikeinourcountry,Vivekānanda—healsocametoyourcountry.Hehadnoknowledge;he cameasanIndian sādhu.[Sarcastically]Vedānta!*Andhe advertises in India that: “Now all the Americans have becomeVedāntists,Hindus,something,etc.[Scornfully]

HedidnotknowwhatVedāntais,andhecametopreach *Vedānta.ThereisnonameofKṛṣṇa,nosmellofKṛṣṇain theirsociety,andtheyare“Vedāntists.” Therefore,my,someofmyGodbrothers,theygave me this title, “Bhaktivedānta.” Vedānta means bhakti. That wasthedesireofmyguru mahārāja,thatthisboy will preachVedānta,butbhakti.*Vedāntameans bhakti.

Seethe argument from Bhāgavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, “By Vedic knowledgeoneistounderstandMe.“Trytounderstand the logic. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo. Vedaiś ca sarvair [Bg. 15.15]. There are different Vedas—Sāma Veda, Ṛg, Atharva, and then there are corollaries—Upaniṣads, Vedānta-sūtra,thenPurāṇas,Mahābharata, Rāmāyaṇa—these are all Vedas, Vedic knowledge, explained in differentwaysfordifferentclassesofmen.So,therefore, Kṛṣṇasaysvedaiścasarvair, all Vedicknowledge.Four Vedas, Upaniṣads, Vedānta-sūtra and Rāmāyaṇa, Mahābhārata, Purāṇas, all these Vedas. What is the purpose of studying all this Vedic literature? To understandMe.

Vedaiścasarvairahamevavedyo. SothisVedicknowledgeisthere.Peopleareexpert[some areexpert,notall].SowhydotheynotunderstandKṛṣṇa? Thisisthenextquestion.“Vedāntists”means[theyare advertising they are Vedāntists, but they do not knowwhatisKṛṣṇa.They’remanufacturinganimitation Kṛṣṇabytheirmentalconcoction.Iftheyknew Kṛṣṇa, then why would they manufacture Ramakrishna? Hmm? TheydidnotknowKṛṣṇa.Itisafact.

Otherwise, why should they present a false Kṛṣṇa, Ramakrishna. Ramakrishna, at the time of death, he informed his disciple,Vivekananda,“IamthesameRāmaandKṛṣṇa. He [Vivekananda]acceptedit,andhepreachedonthat intheRamakrishnatemple.IfIamthesame,thenwhy notgototheoriginalKṛṣṇa?Heisbecominganimportant man,beingthesameRāmaandKṛṣṇa,whynottheoriginal Rāma and Kṛṣṇa? That intelligence he has got. They accept it.

So why he could not understand? Supposing he has studied*Vedānta.ButwhycouldhenotunderstandKṛṣṇa, and why is he presenting a false Kṛṣṇa? What is the reason?Tellmeinyouranswer.Vedaiścasarvairaham eva vedyaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. ThroughVedānta,Vedas,*itisacknowledged that one can understand Kṛṣṇa. But they did not understand Kṛṣṇa. Why? Supposing they have studied all the Vedic literatures, but why did they not understand Kṛṣṇa?Whatistheanswer?

Aśoka:TheydidnotunderstandtheVedānta.

Prabhupāda:
No, suppose they understood, or studied.Yes,theydidnotunderstand.Whythen,thatis thequestion.Whydidtheynotunderstand?

Brahmānanda:

Kṛṣṇasaysnāhaṁprakāśaḥ sarvasya [Bg. 7.25]. IdonotrevealMyself.

Prabhupāda:

Why Kṛṣṇa refuses to be manifestedtothem?Why?Iamaskingwhy.

Jagadisa:BecausetheyareenviousofKṛṣṇa.

Dayānanda:Becauseof Bhaktivedānta!

Prabhupāda:
Hm?

Dayānanda:

Because of Bhaktivedānta!

Prabhupāda:Yes,hereistheanswer! Their Vedāntaiszero;thereisnobhakti.Therefore,itrequiresthehelpofBhaktivedānta.Notthis rascalVedānta.Kṛṣṇasays,bhaktyāmāmavijānāti. [Bg. 18.55] You may read all the Vedic literatures, but if you have no bhakti, then you cannot understand. That is nāhaṁprakāśaḥ sarvasya.ThenHewillremainconcealed.Neverunderstand Him.

Thesepeople—theyhavenobhakti.TheytransferbhaktitogoddessKālī,whoisworshippedbythepersons in the lower grade of life. Tamo-guṇa. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante ’nya devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20]. Goddess Kālī or Durga,oranydemigod—theyareworshippedbypersons—*hṛta-jñānāḥ.*Theyhavenoknowledge.Especially hṛta jñānāḥ—whoseknowledgeistakenaway,gonetohell.

Aśoka:
Prabhupāda, they worship for success in bhakti.

Prabhupāda:That’sallright,youcangetsuccess, butwhatwillyoudowiththissuccess?

Aśoka:UseitforKṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda:

Kṛṣṇadoesnotsaythatyouworship goddess for successful worship. Kṛṣṇa never said that. Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Where does He say to worship goddess? Does He say? Why do you worship goddess? That is for the materialistic person. Thereissomematerialgain.Theycanworshipgoddess. ButforgettingthemercyofKṛṣṇa,thereisnomention thatyouworshipgoddess.Whereisthisstated?If you worship goddess, then you can worship Me. Is this stated?Whydoyoudothat?

Universal. Mām ekaṁ. Beginning.That’sall.Ekaṁ—one,meansuniversal. But why do you accept? Thatisignorance.Wehavenoobjectionifyou praytogoddessforKṛṣṇa*bhakti.*Butthereisnoneed!If Kṛṣṇawantstofavoryou,Hedoesnotdependongoddess’ favor.

Suppose if somebody wants to see me, if I say, “Yes,Iwanttoseehim,“itdoesnotdependonanother’s favortoseeme. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa said that: “Just surrender to Me; everythingwillbeallright.Thisiscalledeka-niṣṭhā: [fixation on One Supreme.]You do not require.”

Kṛṣṇa says that, “You go to My representative.”

tad viddhi praṇipātena
paripraśnena sevayā
upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ
jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ
[Bg. 4.34]

He neversaysthatyougotogoddessKālī,Durgā,Hedoesn’t. Hecondemns—kāmaistaistairhṛta jñānāḥ—go toMyrepresentative.TheVedasalso say—tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurumevābhigacchet. [Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.2.12] Itneversays—tad-vijñānārthaṁ—one should approach something else, some demigods.

No.Gurumevābhigacchet.ButtheyarealsodevoteesoftheLord,sowehavenodisrespectforanydemigod.But itdoesn’t require. PeopledidnotunderstandVedāntasimplyby studying Vedānta.ButVedāntashouldbestudiedfromthebhakta. Therefore, Bhaktivedānta. We don’t read Vedānta without bhakti. That is our specialty.Vedānta is required.

WithoutVedāntaknowledge,knowledgeisnot perfect. But through* bhakti.* So, they did not accept bhakti. Therefore, they could not understand *Vedānta.Misrepresented.Thisso-calledVedāntists’society,what is their value? They could not understand what is the objectiveofVedānta.*TheythinkthatKṛṣṇaandafalse Ramakrishna are the same. Vivekananda teaches, “Why are you searching after God. There are so many gods loitering in the street. Daridra-nārāyaṇa.

Why are you goingtoNārāyaṇa?

Brahmānanda:

Healsosaid,“Insteadofcultivatingtulasī,cultivatebrinjal[eggplant].

Prabhupāda:
Yes. Puffed-up materialist. [Sarcastically] And he wanted to please the Lord. Therefore,hehasnotbeensuccessful.

[ToBrahmānanda:] Youweregoingtohisclasses?

Brahmānanda:
Yousavedus.

Prabhupāda:
Hmm?

Brahmānanda:
Yousavedus.

[long pause, some indistinct conversation]

Jagadīśa:
There was one more question about when the girls get older. You’ve already mentioned that they should stay at gurukula. Sometimes the parents may want to take the daughter home when they are ten or eleven years old. They may cause a distraction from the temple service. So, whether that is all right also?

Prabhupāda:You can request them, but if they do not hear you, what can I do?

Jagadīśa:
But the boys? If the parents want their young sons to live at home and attend gurukula during the day and then go home at night, is that a good policy?

Prabhupāda:

Gurukula means they must be residing.

Jagadīśa:
Up til 15 years?

Prabhupāda:
At least. Boys can live here up to 25th year, until they are married.

Jagadīśa:
25th year…

Prabhupāda:
[simultaneously] If they want to marry! [laughter]

Jagadīśa:
That answers all our questions, Prabhupāda. Thank you very much.

Everyone: